EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING ACT 1973 (TEMPORARY POWERS CONTINUATION) ORDER 1977 (Hansard, 2 May 1977)

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Employment and Training Act 1973 (Temporary Powers Continuation) Order 1977, laid before the House on 19th April last, be approved.
My Lords, under the Employment and Training Act 1973, as amended by the Employment Protection Act 1975, the Secretary of State has powers to make arrangements, first, to secure a temporary continuation of employment for persons who in his opinion would otherwise be likely to be made redundant (Section 5(1)(b)); and, secondly, to obtain employment for persons who would in his opinion, because of their special circumstances and the high or increasing level of unemployment in Great Britain, otherwise have, or be likely to have, difficulty in obtaining employment (Section 5(1)(c)). The first of these is the statutory cover for 846 the temporary employment subsidy, and the second is the statutory cover for the youth employment subsidy.
Under Schedule 14, paragraph 2, of the Employment Protection Act both these powers would cease to have effect eighteen months after they first commenced unless extended in accordance with the procedure laid down in Schedule 14. This provides that the powers may be extended by the Secretary of State, for periods not exceeding twelve months at a time, by means of a Statutory Instrument subject to the Affirmative Resolution procedure in both Houses of Parliament.
The draft order provides for the extension of the powers of the Secretary of State which came into force on 1st January 1976 and which would expire on 30th June 1977 unless continued by the order. The draft order seeks an extension from the 1st July 1977 to the 30th June 1978, for the maximum period of twelve months permitted by the Act. It would be open to the Secretary of State, if he so wished, to seek a further renewal beyond 30th June 1978. The Government have already announced their intention, subject to the passing of the order, of extending both the temporary employment subsidy and the youth employment subsidy, schemes currently operated under Section 5(1)(b) and (c) of the 1973 Act, beyond 30th June 1977. I beg to move.

§ Lord LYELL
My Lords, we are again particularly grateful for the very clear way in which the noble Lord has explained this rather complicated order. He has been diving around the Employment Protection Act, to Schedule 14. Nevertheless, he made that appear simple and uncomplicated, and we are very grateful to him for treating the order in that way.
We would, of course, like to give our approval to the Government in continuing for another year the provisions of the Act in this particular respect. There are two, I hope fairly simple, questions that the noble Lord might be able to help me with. 847 First, would he be able to give us, possibly at a future stage or informally, or perhaps in writing, the total numbers of persons (I think we have to say nowadays) who benefit from the scheme? So far as I have been able to find from the researches I have made, the numbers who have benefited from this scheme have trebled in the four years since it was first instituted. Can the noble Lord confirm that?
The second small point on which the noble Lord may be able to help us is this. Will he give us his estimate of the total cost of implementing the Act, and in particular the increase in cost over the past eighteen months? I hope these are reasonably simple points. They have cropped up, and I wonder whether the noble Lord is able to cover some of the more numerate points, as I would put it. We are very grateful for the way in which he has explained the order, and we are pleased that the Government see fit to continue the powers for another twelve months.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, may I ask a brief question. If the noble Lord cannot deal with this at the moment I will perfectly well understand. As I understand it, under these provisions employment is made available by an employer who would not otherwise have been able to take on a particular person to do a job, which, of course, he has to show to be necessary in order to obtain the support. The question I want to ask is this: Could a pressure group or charitable body qualify for assistance under these provisions? I am thinking of bodies such as Shelter, the Child Poverty Action Group, the National Council for Civil Liberties and so on, which have been very severely hit by a drop in their subscriptions by private donors, by the imposition of VAT on the goods that they buy, and by the various overheads which are increasing at a much faster rate than their subscription income. Can the noble Lord tell me whether an organisation of that kind, which is perhaps partly charitable but partly of the nature of a pressure group, could benefit from the provisions of the order?

Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE
My Lords, can the noble Lord say how each region benefits— whether for various reasons some regions receive more 848 than others? Can he say how the money is divided, and whether there are difficulties in some regions which do not occur in others? In other words, is it a fair and just distribution? Does the policy cover everyone in each region? It is probably important for the various regions to know that.

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, I cannot at short notice give the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, the full figures but I shall certainly undertake to ensure that the figures are supplied. Since August, 1975, the temporary employment subsidy has been paid in respect of 236,000 workers, and at present some 193,000 are covered by the subsidy. Applications are continuing at a high rate. Unfortunately, I do not have the exact figures. The youth employment subsidy came into operation on 1st October 1976. It has been paid in respect of 16,000 young workers. At present about 13,000 are covered by the scheme. At the start the take-up was slow, but there has recently been a rapid increase in the number of applications. It is now being well used but, again, I do not have the latest figures. However, I shall ensure that the noble Lord receives them.
Offhand, I cannot immediately answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and say that a charitable body would qualify. That is quite an interesting and important matter. I shall have immediate inquiries made and, unless the noble Lord likes to table a Question, I shall write to him in the usual way. The noble Baroness, Lady Ward, asked about the various areas. I do not have details of them to hand at the moment, but the scheme operates in certain selected areas. They were referred to in a recent debate on unemployment a few weeks ago. The scheme is selective in its application. The old development areas are the areas mainly involved.

Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE
My Lords, could the noble Lord give me the figures for the areas which are covered by the scheme? It is important to know whether this important scheme is of use to the areas which need it. I should like to know which areas have received most grant and why. Whatever may have happened in another place, I should like the noble Lord to give me that information, either now or in due course.

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, I shall certainly make arrangements for the noble Baroness to be supplied with the information. It would be interesting to know how many applications have been received and are operating in various areas. That would be of interest to the area in which I know that the noble Baroness has a deep personal interest.