HL Deb 31 March 1977 vol 381 cc1034-7

2.38 p.m.

Baroness YOUNG

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what advice they are receiving from the Carter Committee as a result of its scrutiny of the suspension of the Sunday postal service; and when they expect the Post Office to be in a position to announce the results of the trial period.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the Government have not yet received any advice from the Carter Committee as its report and recommendations have not yet been submitted. As the noble Baroness is doubtless aware, the Post Office announced on 11th March that with postal finances so finely balanced it did not propose to reintroduce Sunday and late restricted postal collections at the present time. This conclusion was reached in the light of its own review, which it promised when the decision to suspend Sunday collections was taken last year.

Baroness YOUNG

My Lords, I can only regard that as a somewhat unsatisfactory reply to the Question. Does the noble Lord not consider that it is in the public interest for the Post Office, as a public monopoly which we are all obliged to use, to take the advice of the Committee under Mr. Carter (which is considering the postal services) before deciding to suspend the Sunday collections permanently?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, committees do not present their reports so quickly that nationalised industries of a major size can wait upon their decisions. But I understand that Sir William Ryland has said that he is not closing the door for all time on the subject of Sunday collections and the Post Office constantly reviews its service in the light of changing circumstances. The Carter report may be one of these changing circumstances.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that most users of the Post Office would be quite happy to do without Sunday collections and second deliveries if only they could have their postage a little cheaper?

Lord WADE

My Lords, pending the report from the Carter Committee, could the noble Lord enlighten the House on a point which concerns a number of people in areas where the Saturday collection is comparatively early in the day? Is there any advantage in posting by first-class post if the letter is posted after the time of collection on Saturday? Presumably it could not reach its destination until Tuesday. Does it follow that, if the second-class post is used, it will not reach its destination before Wednesday; or does it make no difference what stamp is put on the letter?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, that is a highly technical question, the answer to which, I would say, varies from place to place within the United Kingdom. But if there is a specific answer, I will write to the noble Lord.

Lord BYERS

My Lords, is there any point in the noble Lord writing to my noble friend?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I am rather good at answering letters.

The Earl of KIMBERLEY

My Lords, is there any possible chance of the noble Lord being able to say whether the report of the Carter Committee will come out before the debate on the postal and telecommunications services in your Lordships' Chamber on the 20th April?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I am informed that in fact the two could almost coincide. I will make an attempt to persuade my right honourable friend to see that the report is out before the debate.

Lord ORR-EWING

My Lords, could the noble Lord insist that no permanent judgment should be made by the Post Office? An independent committee has been set up. In these circumstances, surely it would be wrong for the Post Office internal committee to come to conclusions, and for action to be taken on those conclusions, until this matter has been thoroughly discussed in Parliament. It has a considerable impact on the business efficiency of our country, as well as on the private community, and this should not be a decision which is taken without mature and very careful consideration.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I have crossed swords with many noble Lords before on this subject. I think noble Lords must make up their minds whether they regard the Post Office as a commercial undertaking, as I believe it is, or a social service. It is the firm view of Her Majesty's Government that the Post Office should not be required, contrary to its commercial judgment, to offer a service the cost of which is disproportionately high to the public benefit. This was agreed when Sunday collections were provisionally suspended last year. Quite frankly, that is the sort of question we ought to discuss. What is this very large industry? Is it a commercial undertaking or is it a social service? In the view of Her Majesty's Government, it is a commercial undertaking and the judgment of its management must be paramount.

Lord BOSTON of FAVERSHAM

My Lords, apart from the Post Office argument about costs, which was well known before the review was instituted last year, can my noble friend say, first, what evidence the Post Office has adduced justifying its decision not to reintroduce Sunday collections; and, secondly, and in particular, what evidence it has adduced which justifies its announcement two months before the review was due to end? There is great public feeling about Sunday collections, and indeed the Union of Post Office Workers itself wants them to be reintroduced. If the Post Office will not face up to its obligations, does my noble friend not feel that perhaps the answer might in the end be a simple one-clause Bill imposing this obligation upon the Post Office?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, as stated in the announcement on the 11th March, postal finances were so finely balanced that the Post Office did not propose to reintroduce Sunday and late restricted postal collections at the present time. I repeat, "postal finances". It really is a question of commercial judgment, and we had better leave it at that.

Lord ROBBINS

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he intends us to infer from his answer to the penultimate supplementary question that commercial undertakings which are monopolies are not the subject of public debate?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I never said that; but the day-to-day operation of a nationalised industry is not the subject of questioning in Parliament. We have adequate opportunities every year to debate the performance of nationalised industries.

Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS

My Lords, does the noble Lord recognise—

The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)

My Lords, I have the feeling that it is the wish of the House to pass on to the next Question.