§ 3.37 p.m.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission, this may be a convenient time for me to reply to the Private Notice Question which stands in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Young.
"I am informed that the difficulties stem from new work rosters for domestic staff at the Manor Hospital, Epsom. These were agreed and implemented by members of the other unions concerned but proved unacceptable to a few members of the Transport and General Workers' Union. After considerable discussion 30 members of this union were eventually suspended on full pay at the end of February; but the suspension was lifted on 21st March on the understanding that staff would then return to work. As, however, they were still unwilling to accept the new rotas they received notice of dismissal as being in breach of contract.
907 "The 30 domestic workers were joined by about a dozen catering staff and pickets were established. Action spread to another four hospitals in the mid-Surrey Health District. Although this action was unofficial Transport and General Workers' Union officials discussed the problems with local management late last week but felt unable to accept a temporary solution or a formal approach to the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service unless the Area Health Authority first reinstated the 30 staff and agreed to restore the former rotas. Management were reluctant to accept this latter course which would in any case have had to be put to the other staff who are content with the new arrangements. Interruptions to supplies gave rise to fears for the wellbeing of patients and preliminary steps were taken by the Area Health Authority to seek an injunction to restrain allegedly illegal picketing. On Monday the Transport and General Workers' Union declared the dispute official.
"In view of the apparent risk to the health and welfare of patients, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State decided to intervene in order to cool the situation, protect patients' interests and get talks going again. He took three steps:
At my right honourable friend's suggestion, the chairman of the Area Health Authority called the parties together yesterday.
Again at my right honourable friend's suggestion, the chairman agreed to defer action on the application for an injunction in relation to picketing.
My right honourable friend asked the Transport and General Workers' Union for their part to assist in cooling the situation by ensuring that picketing is peaceful and avoids action which would put the health of patients at risk.
The union gave art assurance that action along these lines was already being taken.
"In this connection, my right honourable friend and I deplore the savage personal attack yesterday by a certain newspaper on the General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers' Union, Mr. Jack Jones. 908 Mr. Jones has a fine record of campaigning in the cause of the elderly and in relation to this dispute has done nothing to conflict with that record. Officials of the union have taken steps to ensure that picketing is kept within the proper bounds and that essential supplies are allowed through. This is entirely in line with the request made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State yesterday.
"Following my right honourable friend's initiative, talks took place yesterday and a Joint Statement was issued last night by the Area Health Authority and the Transport and General Workers' Union in the following terms:
'An agreement has been reached on immediate appointment of a mediator through the Arbitration, Conciliation and Advisory Service to look into the dispute in the domestic department at the Manor Hospital, Epsom. A further meeting has been arranged for tomorrow, Wednesday, at 5 p.m., in an effort to reach a final and satisfactory agreement.'"It would not be helpful for me to make any further comments while negotiations continue, but I am advised that although about 100 staff are still taking action essential supplies are now reaching the hospitals concerned and I am assured that there is no immediate risk to patients. I will continue to keep in close touch with the situation."
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, I can hardly thank the noble Lord for that Statement. I have considerable sympathy for him personally because he is a kindly man, but I should have thought that his first action would be to ask his right honourable friend the Secretary of State to condemn without question the action of a trade union in stopping essential supplies of food and fuel from reaching elderly, sick and, in many cases, mentally handicapped patients. For them to have taken this action on two of the coldest days that we have had this year must make all of us in this country feel deeply ashamed. I hope further that the sentence in the last paragraph of the Statement:
It would not be helpful for me to make any further comments while negotiations continue"—does not mean that the noble Lord is now completely satisfied that the patients are not suffering.909 According to the Press report in today's Times, agreement has been reachedwhereby supplies of food and laundry and other essentials will be allowed through the picket lines each day. Surely in the case of elderly and sick patients there ought to be no question, in any circumstances, of any interruption of supplies. Does not the noble Lord agree that in many ways it is the outdated structures of trade unions which led to the strike action instead of to the proper use of the negotiating machinery? At the beginning of the Statement it is said that:
… the Transport and General Workers' union officials discussed the problems with local management…but felt unable to accept a temporary solution or formal approach to the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service".To many people like myself, it is inexplicable why, when machinery is laid down, it is not used at once and why a great many people have to suffer. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the issue, surely sick people ought not to be put at risk.
§ Baroness ROBSON of KIDDINGTONMy Lords, on behalf of these Benches and also on behalf of myself as Chairman of the South-West Thames Regional Health Authority, may I welcome the Secretary of State's Statement and his intervention to the limited extent that he intervened in this dispute. I think that all of us welcome the fact that the dispute has been contained. I personally disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Young, regarding the statement that she made about the trade unions. All of the other unions have behaved admirably in this dispute. There has been no intervention by the other unions to exacerbate the problem, and I should like to pay tribute to them for that. In the present situation, when the talks have resulted in a bettering of the situation, when ACAS have been called in and when both sides have agreed to abide by arbitration, it is not appropriate to make statements which might help to fan the flames of further discontent.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am grateful for the comments which have been made by both noble Baronesses. I do not want to join issue with the noble Baroness, Lady Young. In a situation of this kind it is so easy to condemn; it is so easy to make statements which, instead of helping the situation, are going 910 to make matters infinitely worse. No one more strongly desires than my right honourable friend and myself that this matter be resolved successfully. We recognise the inconvenience that is suffered in situations of this kind by the people on the receiving end. However, we want to create the kind of climate that will resolve these difficulties because, in the last analysis, it is their resolution that is going to put the matter back to where it was. In this kind of situation, it does not help to make outspoken, public condemnations which will exacerbate the situation rather than help it. In that respect I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Robson of Kiddington, who takes this point of view, who is on the spot and who knows the situation. I am glad that she feels that in the circumstances my right honourable friend has done the right thing.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to clarify one point. As I understood it, the conflict was about certain schedules for a husband and wife who wanted to be off duty together so as to look after their children. Therefore my sympathies were with the strikers, not with the management who stopped them being off duty together. It seems to me to be very reasonable that a husband and wife who are working in a hospital should occasionally have their leave together in order to look after their children.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, it is perfectly true that there has been a dispute over the rotas. There are four different kinds of rotas to meet four very different situations within the hospitals concerned. These rotas have been accepted by the majority of the people working them. There were disagreements on the part of a number of people and they were the cause of the present situation. As I say, however, I do not really want to go into cause. We want to find out whether or not these difficulties can be overcome. As meetings are taking place and will continue tomorrow, I think it is perhaps as well for me to say no more than that I hope that the talks are successful.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, what does the noble Lord mean when he says that he hopes that the situation will be put back as it was?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, complained that certain patients were suffering as a result of this dispute.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, they were suffering.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I have not denied it; perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to finish. I am saying that that was the complaint of the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and that she obviously wants the situation to be resolved so that what happened before will continue in the future. And this is precisely what I meant.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that there is something rather repugnant about the whole idea of the picketing of a hospital?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the lesson for us all from this is how important it is that the proper negotiating machinery should be used and that strike action should always be a last resort, particularly where the wellbeing of patients is concerned, and that this is really the tragedy of the situation?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the noble Baroness encourages me to say things that I really do not want to say. I hope noble Lords opposite will cast their minds back some months when perhaps negotiating machinery in respect of other parts of the National Health Service could have been used.