RETURNING OFFICERS (SCOTLAND) BILL (Hansard, 29 March 1977)

§ Lord KIRKHILL
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY
This Bill aims to produce a new system for running elections in Scotland. The staffs who used to run the polling stations and the whole system, including the returning officer, operated under the sheriff and they were the sheriff court staffs. The Bill proposes a new system and we discussed that at Second Reading. The Second Reading debate took place on 14th March, and of course I cannot help being amused by this Amendment coming forward at this stage because we understood that there was not to be a Committee stage. We did not have any Amendments, and no other noble Lord 811 put down an Amendment, but now the Government have put down an Amendment at short notice.
I think this arose from something I said on Second Reading, as reported at column 1408 of the Official Report of 14th March. I asked what would happen if there were to be a General Election in the next few weeks or months? That was just over two weeks ago. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkhill, said that everything would be all right. But under the Bill as it stands, without this Amendment, the new system does not enter into force until three months after the Bill is enacted. Therefore, I cannot help but think that in the intervening two weeks, when there has been the prospect of an immediate General Election, and that has come and gone—even though the noble Lord, just over two weeks ago, did not realise that—it has been brought home, in a way that I do not think could have been bettered, that it was necessary to introduce some flexibility into the Bill.

§ Lord KIRKHILL
To strike a personal note only, I should say that I am a hawk in these matters, not a dove.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY
I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhill, has done nothing other than give very good advice to his colleagues in the Govern-merit. But since he was reassuring us on 14th March, when I raised this point, I think that he must have looked into it with more than academic interest during the past two weeks.
I think that it would be wise to provide this discretion to the Secretary of State, rather than have a date which is rigidly three months after the enactment of the Bill. Therefore I regard the Amendment as an improvement, and that would be obvious I think from the remarks that I made on 14th March. But can the Minister tell us whether the new arrangements could be brought in immediately? For instance, let us suppose that the Liberal Party decided not to support the Government on something important in a month's time—and, after all, they voted against the Government on Defence yesterday—and there were to be a General Election in April or May. In those circumstances, given that the Bill is, I understand, to go through all its remaining 812 stages in the next 24 hours or so, and probably receive Royal Assent later this week, would it be possible for the new system to be brought into effect in April or May? I know that under this arrangement the Secretary of State will be able to take the decision, which is much better than the situation under the Bill as it now stands. But many of us would be interested to know whether it would be physically possible to introduce a new system within the next two months.
Furthermore, should there be a by-election in Scotland within the next two or three months, would it be possible for the change to take place in that time? I am talking about the practicability, knowing that the Secretary of State can take the decision himself whether to use the old or the new system. I think we should like to know whether the Minister can give us an assessment of how long it will take for the new arrangements to be available for a by-election or a General Election, given the fact that the Bill is likely to be enacted this week with this Amendment, which I of course support.

§ Lord LLOYD of KILGERRAN
Before the noble Lord sits down, in view of the spirit of confrontation in which he has addressed your Lordships' Committee perhaps I may remind him that, of course, the Liberal Party was not consulted on the Defence matters, voted on yesterday in another place. It is perhaps not quite inappropriate to point that out in view of the words of the noble Lord. But if, on a matter on which there is a serious confrontation taking place at this stage, I can help either noble Lord in any way, perhaps they will let me know.

§ Lord HUGHES
I do not know whether or not the noble Lord who has just sat down is speaking in the capacity of a Shadow Minister—

§ Lord LLOYD of KILGERRAN
I was speaking purely in my private capacity.

§ Lord HUGHES
I am not rising to concern myself with the possibilities of a General Election, but to speak to something of which I have given notice to my noble friend Lord Kirkhill. I intended doing this on Third Reading, but the remarks just made by the noble Lord, 813 Lord Campbell of Croy, about bringing these changes into operation at an early date make it appropriate that I should perhaps say what I have to say at this point.
The Explanatory Memorandum refers to the fact that, under Section 20 of the Representation of the People Act, …exchequer payments to returning officers are regulated on a common basis throughout Great Britain". This implies that when the new arrangements come into effect the sort of payments which have been made in the past to the sheriff clerk and his staff will be made to the new returning officers, who will be the chief executives of local authorities. I am quite certain that both the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, and my noble friend Lord Kirkhill are aware of the dismay with which the ratepayers in Scotland have greeted the intimation recently made that, provided the local authorities agree to do so, the chief executives of local authorities are to collect payments of perhaps £600 or £700, or even £800, for performing the duties of returning officers, which on paper, at least, used to be carried out by Lord Provosts and Provosts of burghs. My noble friend Lord Kirkhill himself did this in Aberdeen, as I did in Dundee, and we received no payment for it at all; but in fact we were returning officers only nominally, and the work was done in the departments of the town clerks and of the county clerks. But it is equally the case that the work was not done by the town clerk or by the county clerk, and it is quite iniquitous that the town clerk and an official or officials designated as deputy returning clerks should receive these sums of money when in fact the work is done as part of the ordinary work of the clerk's department; and I am quite certain that it could be regarded as part of the ordinary work of the chief executives of the new authorities.
It used to be that in some authorities, perhaps in all authorities, there was a fund known as the county clerk's fee fund and the town clerk's fee fund, and any payments which these officers received in that capacity were put at the disposal of the local authorities. I would certainly hope that my noble friend Lord Kirkhill would encourage local authorities to ensure that any payments which are made to their 814 staff as a consequence of this measure go into the funds of the local authorities, and do not go into the pockets of the individual officers. I should like to add that at this time, when ratepayers generally are so hard pressed, it would be regarded as an act of grace on the part of the Government if my noble friend were to use his influence with local authorities to withhold payments of these sums to their individual officers because under the new dispensation of local authorities they are not doing anything different from what they have done for many years in the past. There has been much criticism, a great deal of it unjustified, of the reform of local government, but something which is entirely justified is the outcry from ratepayers about these totally unjustified payments to officials who, in the most cases, are receiving substantially more money for the jobs which they are now carrying out and, in some cases, are receiving more money for doing less work than they formerly did.

§ Lord KIRKHILL
I can certainly give the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, an assurance that, as to the possibility of there being a by-election in the next few weeks—it will not, of course, be a General Election; I have some assurance from the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, about that meantime, and I am delighted to welcome him on board, as it were—if there be one then the new arrangements can be put into effect. So far as the point raised by my noble friend Lord Hughes is concerned, he will know, having occupied the position I now hold, that I have no statutory power in this regard as it relates to the local authorities concerned.

§ Lord HUGHES
Influence.

§ Lord KIRKHILL
But I have some influence, and he still has a residue of great influence. I would think that the remarks he has made in your Lordships' Committee this afternoon might well be noted in certain places in Scotland.