§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what conclusions were reached at the United Nations Commission on Human Rights at Geneva, and what proposals were made by the United Kingdom delegation.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, the Commission passed some eleven resolutions, including ones on Southern Africa, Chile, and the use of torture. The United Kingdom delegation succeeded in having passed a resolution on the protection of mental patients, it co-sponsored the resolution on Chile, contributed to the drafting of the resolution on torture, and other resolutions, and pressed hard for an independent investigation into the situation in Uganda.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, appreciating the decisions which were reached, were they not rather inadequate? Is it not one of the illnesses of the world today that the denial of human rights, according to the American State Department, now occurs in 80 countries? Is it not now possible for Her Majesty's Government to take an initiative in an international convention which shall deny the right of Governments to persecute people for their political opinions?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I very much appreciate my noble friend's concern, as always, with these matters. We certainly were not satisfied 378 with the Commission's performance taken as a whole, but I am glad to assure my noble friend and the House that our delegation played a forceful and honourable role in these discussions. I will not quarrel with him about the extent to which Member States of the United Nations are, in varying degrees, guilty of the infringement of basic human rights. As to the efficacy of a new international convention, the proposal certainly has merit, but I would remind my noble friend that at the end of the day the terms and obligations of an international convention are for application and implementation in the Human Rights Commission.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is all very well to pass resolutions in Geneva but it is another matter entirely to have proper machinery for their enforcement? What view do Her Majesty's Government take about the proposal that there should be a United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights? Do the Government intend to present concrete proposals for monitoring the adherence by Governments to the United Nations Convention on Civil and Political Rights, which has been signed by many of the 80 nations which are in contravention of it? Will the noble Lord make a further Statement about this matter in due course?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords, I would welcome the opportunity. At the moment I would say that this country, with others, is in favour of examining any practical way to make effective these resolutions. Of course, these resolutions, when they are adopted, have a certain influence and a certain force. But I take the point that we need to consider at least moving on to the applicatory aspects of the discussions in Geneva and in New York. As to whether the appointment of a High Commissioner is the best way to do this, it may well be. I will certainly, with my right honourable friend, give consideration to this. I repeat, I would welcome the opportunity in due course, not too soon, of making a Statement on this matter.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether any other countries sponsored the draft resolution 379 on Uganda which was put forward by the United Kingdom delegate? Secondly, would the Minister give an assurance that the Government will co-operate in every way with the Human Rights Committee, which is meeting, I believe, for the first time in New York, under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which, of course, came into force last year?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords, I can be responsive on the second part of the noble Baroness's question. As to the modalities of the resolution sponsorship, I think I would need notice of that question; but I understand what lies behind it, and I should like to inform the noble Baroness, and indeed the House, of the position. We played a prominent, and, I think, up to a point, effective part; but I appreciate that the sponsorship of this particular resolution raises important questions. I will do my best to meet the point raised by the noble Baroness.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it would be true to say that our delegation did reasonably well in the circumstances of today? Would it not also be true to say that those who ask for conventions and for instant solutions in regard to the problems of human rights, are crying for the moon.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have a certain reluctance to be drawn into that particular civil war. No doubt the noble Baroness and the section of this noble House to which the second part of her question was directed will get together and agree on the resolution. As to the first part of her question, I certainly agree; our delegation, as I said, played a forceful and honourable part. I think it cannot be too often emphasised that this country, whatever its weaknesses—it has no deficiencies, but temporary weaknesses—plays an effective part in these discussions. It is always to be found on the side of human rights, and it always presents its view on a basis of morality and practicality.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, although I support the action which Her Majesty's Government took on Uganda, 380 is there not now a danger that one may select certain countries as breaking human rights when that action is deplorably extensive over the greater part of the world, even in many countries which are our allies as well as those with which we have differences?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I agree that there is always this danger. However, I insist that Her Majesty's Government's policy on human rights is very well known, and is applied across the board to all countries which are found to be infringing these basic rights without regard to their political or other complexion. However, as my noble friend said, it must be borne constantly in mind that our policy is evenhanded and consistently applied to all countries.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, I am at a loss to understand why Her Majesty's Government should come under attack with regard to this very important matter of human rights, in view of the attitude that they have taken in the past. We are not responsible for the educational systems that operate in countries such as Chile. Nevertheless, is it not also true to say that on this major issue the previous Government took a similar stand to the one which Her Majesty's Government have taken?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, not for the first time I welcome my noble friend's contribution. I agree with all that he has said, and I am sure that he and other noble Lords will agree that it is now time to pass on to the next Question.