§ 2.44 p.m.
§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to encourage teachers of physiotherapy in the Health Service.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, teachers of physiotherapy in the National Health Service have an important and continuing role and we appreciate very much the value of their contribution. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services has made provision for new one-year training courses for physiotherapists to become teachers, and a pilot course for occupational therapists—which I know is another discipline—is in operation at Garnett College during the current academic year. Further courses, including courses for physiotherapists, will be introduced at the beginning of the next academic year.
§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that there is no incentive to become a teacher of physiotherapy, and that there is great concern because of the lack of teachers in schools throughout the country? Is the noble Lord able to agree with me that if there are no teachers of physiotherapists there will be no physiotherapists in the future, and that this will be very serious so far as the rehabilitation of patients throughout the country is concerned?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I agree in some measure with the noble Baroness; but may I point out that although she says that there will be no teachers there is, as she well knows, a very substantial number of teachers. The Government are, however, concerned about the situation. We realise that there are difficulties and, let me be quite frank about it, we recognise that they are in some measure financial difficulties. We are trying to make available more opportunities for physiotherapists to be trained as teachers, which may help. The Government recognise that there is some concern about their levels of pay but, because of the pay conditions, we cannot do anything about the situation at present.
The Earl of HALSBURYMy Lords, would the noble Lord go a little further 7 than that and recognise that the most encouraging thing that can happen to anybody following recruitment is to be offered prospects of advancement in one's career to a reasonable salary level? A situation in which people can earn less after training in their own career than they can earn without training in some other career is most unsatisfactory.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the noble Earl will know, because he was chairman of a committee that inquired into the matter some time ago, that there are a number of grades. The starting salary for the basic clinical grade is £2,142, plus the £6 per week supplement. There are four other grades, with salaries going up to just over £6,000. As I have already said, I recognise, as the Government recognise, that some other incentive is necessary, and as soon as the opportunity presents itself we shall do something about it.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, what is the comparison between those salaries which the noble Lord has just mentioned and the average male weekly earnings, as shown by the Government statistics? Are they more, or less, or the same?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, may I say, in reply to the noble and learned Lord, that it depends what scale we are going to match it against; but if we match it against the third, fourth and fifth, then the scale of those physiotherapists who would be superintendents is quite good in teaching grades and principals. However, it is the lower scales which concern the Government.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEBut does it mean, my Lords, that the salaries of those grades which the noble Lord has now mentioned are the same as the average male weekly earnings, or more, or less?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, they are more than the average weekly earnings.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, would the noble Lord bear in mind that all physiotherapists 8 will be supporting my noble friend who asked the Question? The noble Lord will not know that when I was in another place I represented the physiotherapists for very many years from the Parliamentary point of view. Could I have an assurance from the noble Lord that he also will fight the battle for physiotherapists who are a very important section of the community today? May I please have a very nice assurance from the noble Lord that he, as well as the noble Baroness who asked the Question, will fight for the cause of the physiotherapists?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I can only repeat to the noble Baroness what I said a moment or two ago. We are aware of one of the major difficulties, and as soon as we are able to do something about it we shall be only too willing to do so. We recognise that the contribution of the physiotherapists is of supreme importance in the National Health Service, and obviously we want to increase that contribution so far as we can.
§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, I should like to ask just one more question of the noble Lord. Would he agree that on the whole physiotherapists prefer to work in the clinical field rather than the teaching field, and therefore this incentive is really vital?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not know whether that is so or not. I believe there are something like 5,000 physiotherapists working in clinics at the present moment. One imagines that a number of them will want to be able to attain teaching standard and teaching ability, but of course it is known that some who have been teaching for some time like to return to the clinical situation.
Viscount ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree the enormous value of these people who enable us to stand on our own feet, and does not the same answer in fact apply to the whole of British industry and to Government policy?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I stand on my own feet today largely as a result of the help I received from physiotherapists some years ago.