§ 2.46 p.m.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will confirm that many short-service aircrews joined the RAF under conditions that promised them the right to leave after eight or 10 years' service with a tax-free gratuity of £2,750 or £5,000 respectively; and if so whether they will give an assurance that in any new pension scheme there will be no attempt to alter retrospectively the conditions under which these aircrews joined.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, there are some 450 aircrew officers in the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force on special pensionable commissions with an option, falling after April 1978, to leave after eight or 12 years' service with tax-free gratuities, currently £4,155 and £5,000 respectively. As has been stated in another place, the payment of these gratuities after April 1978 is under urgent review in the light of pensions legislation. I must make it clear, however, that no decision on the lines of some recent newspaper reports has been taken, and that Her Majesty's Government are taking fully into account the views which have been expressed on this matter in both Houses.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, arising from that reply, for which I thank the Minister but which I found disturbing, may I ask this question? Why should the Government have to take time to consider a clear issue such as I have tried to put in my Question, as to 1265 whether or not they will honour obligations entered into when these young men joined the Services? I choose my words carefully, but may I say this? It seems to me that the Government have not yet made up their mind whether or not to double-cross these young men as regards the conditions on which they originally entered. Why should the Government not be able to say today that they have come to a decision and they will not "rat" on their previous promises?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the Government are aware of the concern felt in both Houses of Parliament on this subject. The Prime Minister has asked for an urgent report from the Secretary of State for Defence, agreed with the Department of Health and Social Security and the Civil Service Department. This is a most delicate issue, but it is not being ignored.
§ Lord GEORGE-BROWNMy Lords, will the noble Lord accept it from some of us that, without adopting the extravagant language of the noble Lord who has just spoken, it would seem to be utterly intolerable and impossible to go back at all on this obligation? I may be knocking at an open door, but may I re-emphasise, so that there shall be no doubt in the minds of the Government, that any attempt on any grounds whatever to go back on this would receive the utmost opposition, I would hope, of all of us in the House?
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, since the advertisements offering these gratuities to aircrew officers have been appearing in the Press up till 1975, why should the Government wait a moment longer before publicly dismissing what appears to be a thoroughly disreputable expedient?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as I say, the whole thing is under urgent review, and I would——
A noble Lord: Why should there have to be a review?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMBecause there has been a piece of legislation which may be in conflict with the contracts entered into with these young officers.
§ Viscount SLIMMy Lords, would the Minister be prepared to say what attitude the Government are taking to continue the recruitment of this very fine type of officer in both Services and what recruiting officers are now saying to such people about their future and possible terms of service?—because it is my view that this is no way to go about recruiting aircrews or good officers of any kind.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I think we must be clear that this is a comparatively small group of officers who have an option. I am not saying that this makes their interest any less important; I am simply saying that it is a somewhat exceptional group of officers who have three choices open to them: to take a pension, to leave after eight years, or to leave after 12 years. It is a very flexible arrangement. But there are 4,000 non-pensionable short service officers who fall outside this area of discussion, and who are not affected. I agree with the noble Lord that the type of young man attracted is of a very high quality, but this really does not affect the issue. It is not the quality of recruitment; it is fairness of treatment which is concerning your Lord-ships' House.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, will the noble Lord tell his colleagues, the Ministers concerned, that if the Government decide not to honour this undertaking to pay the gratuities they will be undermining the whole system of fixed public service employment?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the Government are not trying to shuffle out of their obligations. As a result of legislation, there has been a conflict between a contract entered into with a limited number of officers and future pension policies. We have a conflict of interests and, as I said, the Government are concerned and the Prime Minister is himself studying the problem.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, if the Government did, in fact, go ahead with this proposal, would they now be in breach of contract?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, in so far as I—not being a lawyer—understand breach of contract, I would agree with the noble Lord.
Viscount ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that the Government have already got out of a large part of their obligations merely because of the results of inflation? If they are also to get out of the rags and tatters of what is left, it is quite breathtaking.
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House why the Government are unable to give a categorical assurance that, whatever legislation indicates, these people will be no worse off than they would be as a result of the undertakings they were given when they joined?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, we are a reasonable group of people discussing the future of some very valuable officers, and obviously their interests will be considered very carefully.