HL Deb 01 March 1977 vol 380 cc499-502

2.47 p.m.

Viscount HANWORTH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have seriously considered simplifying social benefit and allied legislation as a means of helping those whom it is intended to benefit and of decreasing the excessive Civil Service manpower now required to implement it.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, we are constantly aware of the need to ensure that social security legislation and procedures are as simple as possible, and all such procedures are kept under continuous review. The review of the supplementary benefits scheme which is currently being carried out has simplification as one of its main aims.

Viscount HANWORTH

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Would he agree that some of the important benefits most needed by poor people are taken up only to an extent of perhaps 30 per cent.? Does he remember the recent debate on one-parent families and what was said then about benefits? Does he remember further, a long time ago, the heartrending cases quoted by the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, showing how the benefit system was not operating successfully?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, we are very much aware of this, and it causes us some anxiety. We have no difficulty in diagnosing the various difficulties, but the cure is a different matter. The noble Lord will recall that the Supplementary Benefits Commission published its first report—a separate report from my Department—in September 1976, and drew attention to a number of matters that needed immediate consideration. As a result of that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State set up a review body, and that review body is reviewing these matters and those mentioned by the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth. We hope that in the not too distant future, although I cannot put a date on it, the review body will publish a Consultative Document not only setting out the difficulties which we know exist but, we hope, suggestions on how they can be dealt with.

Lord AVEBURY

My Lords, would the noble Lord consider in the meanwhile drawing together the evidence which exists from a number of sources on the efficacy of combined assessment? This is the procedure whereby a person who applies for any one benefit is tested automatically for a number of others, and the appropriate benefit is conferred on him without him having to make an additional demand. Is the noble Lord aware that I have asked certain questions of the noble Lord, Lord Peart, and we have been in correspondence about this? It is a complex matter and it would be helpful if the Government could, in some way, make arrangements to lay the evidence in their possession before both Houses so that it could be properly evaluated.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I will certainly undertake to see that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is aware of what has been said by the noble Lord this afternoon.

Lord SLATER

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the officers who are responsible for the administration of the social services are operating from what is more or less an office of trust? Does he agree that those who are appointed to such offices, in which they are responsible for administering the social security and other arrangements, should to the best of their ability try to meet the needs and requirements of the applicants who come to them for assistance?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

I am grateful to my noble friend for making that contribution, my Lords. What he says is perfectly true; but as the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, pointed out, we are concerned for the large number of people who do not take up benefits but who are entitled to them and who we know are in need of them. This is a matter to which we want to give consideration.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY

My Lords, would not the best simplification be for the Government to look again at a tax credits scheme which would cover benefits and taxes?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

We have looked at that, my Lords, even though we have not pronounced on it. However, I will certainly convey the noble Lord's view to my right honourable friend.

Lord PLATT

My Lords, while the Government are considering a possible simplification of social benefits, may I ask whether they would be prepared at the same time to consider the possible simplification of the rules of income tax, to such an extent that the ordinary Peer in the street can understand them?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, in my present position, being in my present Department, I would never be called on to answer questions of that kind. This, as I understand it, raises a matter for another Department, but again I will see that it gets there.