§ 2.55 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made at the Belgrade Conference on the question of the refusal by the USSR to comply with the Helsinki agreement by denying human rights, for example, refusing to permit applicants to emigrate, subjecting them to harassment and imprisonment, adopting Stalin-style methods by instituting false show trials against Jewish applicants and encouraging antisemitism.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, as I stated in the course of the debate in the House on 14th June, the CSCE preparatory meeting now being held in Belgrade is concerned only with 1007 preparing the organisational framework for the main review meeting in the autumn. Substantive issues related to the implementation of the Helsinki Final Act are not being discussed at the preparatory meeting.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, while appreciating what my noble friend has said, the Question, if I may say so in a humble way, is directed towards something which is extremely important and urgent. It is not a matter of waiting until the autumn. If you take such cases as the Scharansky trial, which is very urgent to some of us—
Several noble Lords: Question!
Lord JANNERMy Lords, I am asking whether my noble friend will take this into consideration. Will my noble friend take into consideration the fact that trials like the Scharansky trial are continuing, and that they are terribly distressing, and that vicious attacks are being made on people who the USSR know very well have not been in any way connected with the charge that is made against them? Would my noble friend say what possible steps can be taken before the autumn by him, by our Government, and by other Governments with which he is in contact, to see to it that these matters will be attended to without delay?
Lord GORON WY-ROBERTSMy Lords, may I, with equal humility, remind my noble friend of the terms of his Question. He asked, "what progress has been made at the Belgrade Conference on the question of", and so it went on. I tried to indicate that the Belgrade Conference, as such, has not yet convened. It will convene in September. What is happening in Belgrade at the moment is a preparatory practical meeting to arrange the agenda and other arrangements for the Conference itself. Therefore, substantive issues such as the ones my noble friend raised in his Question are not now being discussed in Belgrade. They will be. That is a point I made absolutely clear in the debate, and I do so again. The kind of case my noble friend quoted today, as with that quoted with great eloquence by the noble Duke, the Duke of Devonshire, during the debate, it is the intention of the Government to use in the proper 1008 prosecution of our views at the Conference itself in September and October, so long as it lasts. We shall seek a full examination of the progress made since the signing of the Helsinki Final Act by all the signatories. It is the intention not to confine ourselves to sterile polemics, but to look forward to see how everybody, ourselves and other signatories, East and West, can improve upon the progress made since the Final Act was signed. Matters which my noble friend has raised will most certainly figure in what we say in Belgrade.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, in view of the urgency, and the fact that the trials are now continuing, I wonder whether the preparatory conference could give consideration to advancing the date of the main Belgrade Conference? People could suffer very severely in the meantime unless something is done with some urgency.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I entirely take the point. It is most responsible. I do not know that it would, on balance, be wise to advance the date of the Conference, but the point of the supplementary I think is well made. We are very much seized of the urgency of this particular case and of similar cases. As I have said more than once, we take every possible opportunity, without engaging in possibly counter-productive activity—and that is always a possibility in these cases—of informing those concerned of the very deep feelings in this country, and indeed throughout the West, about cases of this kind.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that Ludmilla Alexeyeva, the representative in the West of the Orlov Committee, has assured a number of us that, in making representations on behalf of those who are being tried for offences such as slander of the Soviet State (offences which are unknown in the Western criminal calendar), we are not jeopardising their position any further than it would otherwise have been? Will the Minister therefore make such representations, particularly on behalf of Scharansky and on behalf of Professor Yuri Orlov, and will he tell the Soviet authorities that if these trials are proceeded with, and they are convicted of offences which are unknown throughout 1009 the Free World, this will seriously jeopardise the prospects of making any progress not only on the Helsinki agreement but also on détente?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have no doubt that what the noble Lord says is true. It is, if I may say so, not in the interests of the Soviet or any other Government to engage in these practices. We have a duty to examine each case, however obnoxious or poignant, on its merits to see whether, in acting, we may not in that particular case or group of cases make it less possible for ordinary justice to be meted out to those people. It would be simple, even simplistic, to proceed on a basis of simple denunciation and protest. We do that on occasion, but I hope the House will join me in agreeing that we must examine each case on its merits, not as to its worthiness but as to the best way, in the interests of the person concerned, for us as a Government to proceed. Organisations and individuals in a free country like ours of course are free to speak out, and they do; indeed, I have no doubt that a number of embassies will by tomorrow morning have procured copies of the Official Report of today's proceedings in this noble House.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to assure the House that the European Community countries are co-operating together to get the draft agenda adopted? Are any East countries supporting the draft agenda which has been put forward by Her Majesty's Government in combination with other European Community countries?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the answer to the first part is, definitely yes; and the answer to the second part is, hopefully yes.
§ Baroness HORNSBY-SMITHMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that while we welcome his statement that these issues will be discussed at the September conference, many of us have grave misgivings that the USSR, who are adept at arranging an agenda to suit their own purpose, will, by the arrangement of the agenda which is now pending, create a situation by which the individual discussion of these cases—of people who are suffering so much at the present time— 1010 will be denied under the rules of order because the agenda will have been drawn too tightly? Is he aware that this is the concern of many people who want a real discussion on how Helsinki has worked in practice?
Lord GORON WY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right to draw attention to that possibility. We are making our attitude on the organisation of the agenda very clear in the current discussions, and I see no likelihood of an agenda arrangements being agreed which would have the bad effects which she rightly reminds us could be possible. In fact, it is not only the countries of the West but, as was suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, others—others not normally associated with the West—who agree with us as to the kind of agenda that could usefully be put together for a useful conference in September.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend not only for what he has said today for what many of us know he has been saying at the conference—I call it a conference, but I suppose it is considered a preliminary meeting that is being held at present—may I ask him to realise that we appreciate the manner in which he has been endeavouring to get this particular problem attended to at the conference which is to be held? Is he aware that many of us are worried lest before that conference is actually held the position becomes too serious? We hope that it will give him an opportunity to discuss with his friends from other countries how to deal with the situation, remembering that when the USSR realise that other nations declare their view that the USSR are doing the wrong thing, they themselves sometimes react favourably?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, we are well aware of the urgency of these matters and lose no opportunity in pressing forward the points that have been made in this House today.