HL Deb 23 June 1977 vol 384 cc847-56

7.42 p.m.

Report received.

Clause 1 [Close Seasons.]:

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 1: Page 1, line 12, after ("order") insert ("either generally or in relation to any area specified in the order").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 1. This Amendment is a very simple one. It would give the power to the Minister to alter close seasons, if it ever became necessary, region by region or area by area. This is just a power the Minister would possess in case he ever needed it. I am sure the Amendment will commend itself to the House.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 2: Page 1, line 14, after ("species") insert ("and description").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, with the permission of the House, I will deal with Amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 4 together. These are entirely drafting Amendments. Amendment No. 4 goes with the new clause proposed by Amendment No. 62 on the Marshalled List, which is simply a replacement for the words in Amendment No. 4. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 3: Page 1, line 15, leave out from ("for") to end of line 16 and insert ("deer of that species and description").

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 4: Page 2, line 1, leave out subsection (3).

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3 [Unlawful weapons, etc.]:

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 5: Page 2, leave out lines 34 to 38.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment goes with Amendment No. 13 and is again drafting.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 8: Page 3, line 6, at end insert ("and done").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 8. This is purely drafting.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4 [Prohibition of poaching, etc.]:

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 9: Page 3, line 12, at beginning insert ("Subject to section 18 of this Act").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, with the permission of the House, I will speak also to Amendments Nos. 10 and 11, and, with permission, the Amendment on the Marshalled List in the name of my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell. If we could take these together, they amount to a redrafting of Clause 4 on the lines which I think appeal to those noble Lords who have taken an interest in this Bill. The drafting, I acknowledge completely, has been done with the help of the Home Office, who, I understand, although not happy with the principle of the clause, are now satisfied with the wording of it with these Amendments. If I may repeat it, I accept the Amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 10: Page 3, line 12, leave out from ("person") to end of line 17 and insert ("enters on any land without lawful authority in search or pursuit of any deer with the intention of taking, killing or injuring it").

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 11:

Page 3, line 18, at end insert— ("(2) Subject to section 18 of this Act, if any person while on any land without lawful authority—

  1. (a) takes or wilfully kills or injures any deer; or
  2. (b) searches for or pursues any deer with the intention of taking, killing or injuring it,
he shall be guilty of an offence. (3) A person shall not be regarded for the purposes of this section as being on any land without lawful authority at any time if, at that time,—
  1. (a) he believes that the person or persons whom he believes to be entitled to consent to his being there have so consented, or would so consent, if he or they knew of his being there; or
  2. (b) he is in constant pursuit of an injured or wounded deer and such injury or wound was inflicted on land where the pursuer was lawfully entitled to take deer.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 11.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 12 as an Amendment to Amendment No. 11:

Leave out subsection (3) and insert— ("(3) A person shall not be regarded for the purposes of this section as entering or being on any land without lawful authority at any time, if at that time,—

  1. (a) he believes that the person or persons entitled to consent to his entry or his being there have so consented, or would so consent if he or they knew of it; or
  2. (b) he is searching for or pursuing an injured deer which was injured on land on which he has the right to take or kill deer.")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, my noble friend has already intimated that he is prepared to accept Amendment No. 12. I therefore beg to move.

On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.

On Question, Whether Amendment No. 11, as amended, shall be agreed to?

The Earl of MANSFIELD

My Lords, hesitate to interrupt this headlong rush, but I am going to do so for two minutes. It is for this reason. This Bill is now getting to its penultimate stage in your Lordships' House; in fact has got there. I must confess that I regard these Amendments to Clause 4 with a great deal of satisfaction. It may be a suitable moment to say this. There was a great deal of anxiety expressed over various parts of this Bill at various times, as anybody who reads the Official Report will confirm. I myself was particularly concerned with two clauses, of which Clause No. 4 was one, because I thought that particularly subsection (3) made, not to put too fine a point on it, legal nonsense. I must pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, who has persisted indefatigably to get agreement from all sides on his Bill and in particular this clause. It would he wrong for the clause to pass into history without some reference to and acknowledgment of his powers of advocacy, powers of persuasion and powers of compromise. This is an Amendment which I think will be welcomed in all parts of the House.

Lord NORTHFIELD

My Lords, I must say this to the noble Earl: I was almost discourteous, because I should have said at the very beginning that he himself played a very great part in helping to redraft this clause.

On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 13: After Clause 4, insert the following new clause:

Taking etc., of live deer . Subject to sections 18 and 19 of this Act, if any person—

  1. (a) takes any live deer; or
  2. (b) marks, or attaches any tag, ring, collar or device to, any live deer,
he shall be guilty of an offence.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have already spoken to this Amendment. It is linked with Amendment No. 5. It is replacing lines 34 to 38 on page 2 by a totally new clause, and does not alter the sense of the Bill.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6 [Offender may be required to quit land]:

7.50 p.m.

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendments Nos. 14 to 19:

Page 3, line 26, leave out from ("person") to ("suspected") in line 27 and insert ("is found committing or is with reasonable cause")

Page 3, line 28, leave out from ("under") to ("to") in line 29 and insert ("the preceding provisions of this Act on any land, it shall be lawful for any constable or authorised person")

Page 3, line 31, leave out ("such") and insert ("the")

Page 3, line 31, leave out ("and, if that person on being") and insert ("(1A) If any person who is")

Page 3, line 35, after ("person") insert ("in relation to any land")

Page 3, line 37, leave out ("on which the action authorised is taken")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, with permission I should like to move these Amendments en bloc. These are all drafting Amendments and do not alter the sense of the Bill. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 7 [Penalties under Part I]:

Lord NORTH FIELD moved Amendment No. 20: Page 4, line 7, leave out ("excluding") and insert ("after").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this again is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8 [Sale, etc., of venison]:

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendments Nos. 21 to 33:

Page 4, line 18, at end insert— ("(1A) If any person sells or offers or exposes for sale or has in his possession for sale, or purchases or offers to purchase or receives, any venison which comes from a deer—

  1. (a) which has been taken in circumstances which constitute an offence under Part I of this Act; and
  2. (b) which he knows or has reason to believe to have been so taken,
he shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to both.")

Clause 9, page 4, line 26, after ("sale") insert ("or has in his possession for sale any")

Clause 9, page 4, line 27, leave out ("wherein shall be entered") and insert ("containing")

Clause 9, page 4, line 28, leave out ("all")

Clause 9, page 4, line 30, leave out ("such book forthwith full particulars of") and insert ("that book forthwith all")

Clause 9, page 4, line 38, leave out ("the") and insert ("his'record").

Page 5, line 3, at end insert— ("(4) Any authorised officer, on producing, if so required, his written authority, and any constable may inspect—

  1. (a) the record book of a licensed game dealer;
  2. (b) any venison in the licensed game dealer's possession or under his control, or on premises or in vehicles under his control; and
  3. (c) any invoices, consignment notes, receipts and other documents which relate to entries in the record book (including copies where the originals are not available);
and may take copies of, or extracts from, the record book and any such documents.

(5) A record book shall be kept until the end of the period of three years beginning with the day on which the last entry was made in the book, and any such documents as are mentioned in subsection (4) of this section shall be kept until the end of the period of three years beginning with the date of the entry to which they relate.

(6) If any licensed game dealer without reasonable excuse fails to comply with the provisions of this section, he shall be guilty of an offence.

(7) If any person wilfully obstructs any authorised officer or constable making an inspection under this section, or knowingly or recklessly makes or causes to be made in a record book any entry which is false or misleading in a material particular, he shall be guilty of an offence.

(8) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £50.

(9) In this section— authorised officer" means any officer of the council of a district or London borough, or of the Common Council of the City of London, who is authorised by them in writing to exercise the powers of this section; record book" means a book kept in pursuance of subsection (1) above.").

Leave out Clause 10.

Leave out Clause 11.

Leave out Clause 12.

Leave out Clause 13.

Clause 14, page 6, leave out lines 2 to 5.

Clause 14, page 6, line 8, leave out ("the servant of") and insert ("a servant of any").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, with permission I should like to move Amendments Nos. 21 to 33 inclusive. Perhaps I may pause to allow noble Lords to take in the full impact of that. It means that we shall be taking all the Amendments on pages 4 and 5 of the Marshalled List together. These Amendments are suggested by the Government as a means of bringing together in one clause what had been in several clauses in the original draft, and at the same time making a few drafting Amendments. I can again say that they do not alter the sense of the Bill. Therefore, I hope that the House will take them extremely briefly. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 15 [Powers of search, arrest and seizure]:

Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 34: Page 6, line 35, after ("seize") insert ("and detain for the purpose of proceedings under this Act").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is designed to bring the text of Clause 15(1)(d) into line with that of paragraphs (e) and (f) by the inclusion of tile words: … and detain for the purpose of proceedings under this Act", which were omitted. In view of the presence of these words in the two following paragraphs, their absence from paragraph (d) might throw doubt on whether any such powers to detain a deer exist. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

7.53 p.m.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 35: Page 6, line 39, after ("(b)") insert ("or (bb)").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment which is consequential on splitting Clause 16(1)(b) into two parts, and the Amendment does that. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16 [Forfeitures and disqualificalions]:

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 16:

Page 7, line 17, leave out ("or of any dog used (by the person convicted)") and insert— ("( ) order the forfeiture of any dog used (by him)")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment, but it has a slight misprint. In between the brackets at the beginning of the Amendment the two letters "(bb)" should be inserted so that the Amendment would then refer to Amendment No. 35 just moved by my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell. This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 37: Before Clause 18, leave out lines 6 and 7.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is an Amendment to delete the words: Part IV Miscellaneous and General". It will pave the way for the retitling of the various parts of the Bill made necessary by the transposition of clauses and other alterations. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 18 [General exceptions]:

Lord WELLS-PESTELL had given Notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 38:

Page 8, line 9, leave out from ("under") to ("protecting") in line 24 and insert ("any of the provisions of sections 1 to 4 and (Taking etc. of live deer) of this Act by reason of any act done for the purpose of—

  1. (a) preventing suffering by any deer calf, fawn or kid deprived of its mother; or
  2. (b) preventing suffering by any deer which appeared to be so seriously injured or in such a condition that to kill it was, or would have been, an act of mercy; or
  3. (c)").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have not been able to have a word with my noble friend Lord Northfield, but I know that he has some reservations about this particular Amendment. With your Lordships' permission, therefore, I propose not to move this Amendment in the hope that we can have some discussion before the next stage of the Bill.

Lord NORTHFIELD

My Lords, I should like to express my gratitude to my noble friend.

Lord NORTHFIELD moved Amendment No. 46: Page 8, line 34, at end insert ("and nothing in sections 1 to 4 and (Taking etc. of live deer) shall make unlawful anything done by virtue of any power conferred on the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, or on that Minister and the Secretary of State acting jointly, by or under the Diseases of Animals Act 1950, the Rabies Act 1974 or sections 9 or 10 of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976.")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is in fact a substitute for Amendment No. 45 which my noble friend has not moved. It is to meet a legitimate point raised by the Government about the need for powers under the Diseases of Animals Act and other matters as they are specified. I beg to move.

Lord DE CLIFFORD

My Lords, the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, is to Amendment No. 45 which has not been moved.

Lord NORTHFIELD

My Lords, I must beg noble Lords' pardon. I apologise most sincerely and I should have pointed out at the beginning that that again was due to a printing error. Those words should not have appeared on the Marshalled List.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 47: Page 8, line 41, leave out ("the deer was causing, or had caused, serious") and insert ("deer were causing, or had caused").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should also like to speak to Amendments Nos. 49 and 51. These Amendments are designed to narrow the restrictions imposed on farmers who need to take advantage of the exemptions provided in the Bill for shooting deer in the close season or at night in defence of their crops.

Lord DENHAM

My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord, but he has said that he is speaking to Amendment No. 51, which is an Amendment to Amendment No. 50. I thought it was agreed through the usual channels that we should not, in fact, tackle Amendments Nos. 50 and 51 this evening because we have only a short time left and these are rather controversial Amendments. Is that not right?

Lord NORTHFIELD

My Lords, I am slightly puzzled. Is the noble Lord suggesting that this should be the point at which I should move the adjournment of the debate?

Lord DENHAM

My Lords, yes.

Lord NORTHFIELD

If it is for the convenience of the House, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.