§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the Civil Aeronautics Board of America now requires air carriers to post notices at every ticket counter and on every passenger ticket, warning passengers of the overbooking practice and the potential risk of being oversold and that "stuffers" to this effect are included in airline tickets; and whether they will ask the Civil Aviation Authority to recommend the adoption of such a procedure in this country.
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I am aware that, as from 3rd April, the United States Civil Aeronautics Board has required all air carriers selling tickets in the United States of America to display notices warning passengers that airline flights may be overbooked and that a similar notice be issued with each ticket sold. The Government, however, do not propose to ask the Civil Aviation Authority to recommend the adoption of a similar procedure in this country.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether that means that the Government have not the authority to ask the CAA to make such a recommendation, or whether it means that the Government do not approve of the recommendation which is suggested? Secondly, does the Minister realise—and I think he does from what he has just said—that all British airlines issuing tickets in the United States have to follow these regulations and make the 752 position of passengers' rights clear to passengers? Could the Minister tell the House why he feels that similar rights should not be accorded to passengers in this country?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, in reply to the first part of my noble friend's supplementary question, this is essentially a matter for the CAA, as I sought to make clear on 19th May. The Government do not see any reason strongly to dissent from the judgment reached by the CAA. Indeed, in reply to a further point which the noble Baroness made, the Government would not have the power to give a direction, but my noble friend has put down a Question for Thursday of next week about the relationship between the Government and the CAA. As to the situation in the United States which my noble friend describes, may I point out that the conditions there are not the same as those in this country. For example, the Civil Aeronautics Board has the power to impose this scheme on all airlines in the United States. The Civil Aviation Authority in this country is reluctant to press changes on the participants in our voluntary scheme, which appears to be working well, and it does not wish to try to impose conditions on British airlines alone.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, arising out of that reply, may I first ask the Minister whether he is aware that I did not ask the Government to issue a directive? I asked them to request the CAA to recommend a procedure. Moving on from there, may I ask whether the Minister is aware that I am greatly disturbed that our own Government in particular should take this attitude towards consumers, an attitude which I hope will be deplored by the House? Reverting to the reply which the Minister gave me on Tuesday at col. 532, does he wonder that I feel strongly about the independence of consumer committees? What does he propose that the Airline Users' Committee should do when it is answerable to the CAA, when the CAA will consider consumer requests only in relation to what the airlines are likely to decide and when the Government, as the Minister has just stated, refuse to intervene?
Several Noble Lords: Hear, Hear!
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I recognise, of course, as I said on Tuesday, the very strong views that my noble friend has about the need for independent consumer voices in these matters; but, as I stated earlier, it is clear that for a matter of this kind the responsibility rests clearly with the CAA. As I said on 19th May, I have gone a long way—and my noble friend acknowledges this—in conveying her views to the CAA. But again, as I said on that occasion, I have had, perhaps reluctantly, to reach the conclusion that I have done all that I personally can within the powers that I have. I am sorry that that is the situation we have reached, but it is so.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the voluntary scheme to which he referred a moment ago is working tolerably well? Can he say what would be the cost to British Airways, for example, if they were obliged overnight to withdraw all the tickets presently in the world, reprint them with the caveat mentioned by the noble Baroness and reissue them to all their stations around the world?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I echo what the noble Lord has said about the voluntary scheme working well, but he is a little unfair in suggesting that such a change would have to take place overnight. As I have indicated, I am not proposing that such a change should take place; but, if that should be decided, it would be possible to phase in the new situation. However, I agree that the cost of these changes is an important consideration which British Airways and others have to take into account.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, would it not be anomalous, even if the tickets did not have to be changed overnight, if one aspect of the scheme were voluntary and another aspect were compulsory?
Lord ORAMYes, my Lords. Indeed, I very much doubt whether the voluntary scheme would survive a compulsory attitude on the part of the CAA and British airlines.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, despite what was said by the spokesman on the Opposition Front Bench, does the Minister realise that the cheers which 754 were given to the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, indicate very wide support in this House for her point of view? Will he convey to the CAA the Question which she has put, and the discussions in this House, so as to influence it in that direction?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, the cheers which came when my noble friend was asking her second supplementary question were, I thought, more in relation to her vigorous defence of consumers in general, and those are sentiments which I personally very much share and I wish I could have joined in the cheers. But the particular point of this Question is a distinctly narrower one which I have answered on several occasions and I would prefer not to continue repeating the Answer.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that the cheers will be as nothing compared with the day when we eventually succeed? As the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, is not likely to be speaking for the consumers in the near future, can the Minister answer the question which I asked him: what does he now propose that the Airline Users' Committee, which represents the users of airlines in this country, should now do, as they can get nothing from the Civil Aviation Authority and nothing apparently from the Government?
A noble Lord: Change the Government !
Lord ORAMMy Lords, offhand I do not know what I would do if I were a member of the Airline Users' Committee, but I indicated that I had given favourable consideration to this matter and consider that I have reached the end of the road. It may be that the Airline Users' Committee will have reached the end of the road on this particular point, given their particular powers; but that does not mean that there is not wide scope for discussion as to what the Committee's powers should be and whether they have the right degree of independence and so forth. The wider question is certainly one for fruitful examination, but I am suggesting that, given the present situation, there is little further that can be done on this question of publicity in relation to compensation for overbooking.
§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, is it still the case that both these organisations share the same chairman?
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)My Lords, I think we should proceed to the next Question.