§ 2.47 p.m.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the reason for refusing visas for five black and live white disabled Rhodesians to attend the games organised at Stoke Mandeville in July 1977.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, the 394 reason, as we advised the President of the International Stoke Mandeville Games Federation, was that those concerned would have participated in the games as a team representing Rhodesia. To have allowed this would have constituted a form of recognition of the illegal régime, and as such would have been contrary to both the spirit and the letter of the various Security Council mandatory resolutions relating to Rhodesia.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him whether he does not think it is very unfortunate that disabled people, who have nothing to do with politics and who have been training themselves during all these years to enter these games, should have to suffer from these entry restrictions? May I also ask him whether the Minister for the Disabled has been consulted on this matter, and whether he cannot persuade the Government to change their minds on humanitarian grounds?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I agree that it is most unfortunate that these people should be placed in this position, but the fault does not lie at our door. It lies at the door of the illegal regime which has produced the circumstances which make it mandatory on us to take this action. As regards what the noble Baroness said about consulting my right honourable friend the Minister for the Disabled, I believe he is well aware of the situation, but I shall myself see him to ascertain whether the suggestion the noble Baroness has made can be implemented in some way. I doubt it very much, as there are a number of considerations here that she, as well as we, I am sure, would wish to keep in mind. Were an exception, however attractive, to be made in these circumstances, we might run the risk of a boycott by other countries, preventing other paraplegics from attending these games, and perhaps many more may be prevented in that way than the small number for which we might make an exception in this case.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, has the noble Lord been told that in fact other countries would not attend, or is he merely imagining it?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have given to the House the best 395 advice that has been proffered to me, as one consideration that has to be borne in mind when we take a difficult decision like this.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, will my noble friend not agree with me, and with everybody else who takes a reasonable view of these matters, that it seems somewhat farcical and absurd that, because Mr. Smith has committed an alleged illegal action, we should take it out on a number of disabled people on the ground of colour?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend is being somewhat less than fair. Nobody is taking anything out of these admirable and intrepid people. There is the utmost sympathy for them. Indeed, individuals from Rhodesia, who would normally qualify for a passport, may come to Britain to take part in sporting events as individuals, but not as representatives of the illegal régime. It is Mr. Smith who is using these paraplegics in order to assert the possibility of recognition of his illegal régime.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, does the noble Lord not think that the Government are straining at a gnat, having swallowed a camel, particularly when one remembers that, very sensibly, the new Foreign Secretary met the head of the alleged illegal regime, in order to see whether we could get on a level, and whether something could come out of it? This seems to be rather piffling alongside that.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I always listen with great respect to what the noble Lord says. But I do not think I can agree with him that what he and others have said about such an act is for consideration.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, while it is clear that Mr. Ian Smith is exploiting these disabled persons to gain recognition of his Government, may I ask whether it would be possible for our Government to say that if this team of disabled came as representing the disabled, rather than Mr. Smith's Government, our Government would be prepared to accept them?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think that my noble friend puts more precisely what I said in my last answer but one. As individuals making application, the position would be quite different.
§ Lord MONSONMy Lords, can the Minister say whether sporting teams from Cambodia or Uganda would be allowed into this country, in the unlikely event of anybody being allowed out of either of those countries? If so, would he not agree that the ruling regimes of both of those countries are at least a hundred times more illegitimate, in the popularly understood sense of the term, than the Smith régime?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, however obnoxious other Governments—and I name none at the moment—may be, they are not in quite the same position as the illegal régime of Rhodesia.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, would it not be right to say, to use the noble Lord's own words in answer to the Question, that it is rather less than fair on the noble Lord's part to say that the cause of this often stupid interference with regard to sport or games is the Prime Minister of Rhodesia?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, stupid interference with sports begins I should say, with stupid and inhuman interference with the rights of blacks as well as whites to take part in sports.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, in view of one of the noble Lord's replies, may I ask whether, if these 10 individuals apply separately, they will be considered?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, they will be considered in the normal way. The position would be quite different from their applying as a team.