THE DISABLED: RAMPS AND LIFTS (Hansard, 15 June 1977)

§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTON
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, the information asked for by the noble Baroness is not available, but it is admitted and recognised that a substantial number of Community Health Council offices can be entered only by steps with no ramps or are on the upper floors with no lifts. I am advised that it is general practice for councils to enable disabled people to whom offices are inaccessible to be consulted in, for example, nearby interview rooms or, if necessary, in their own homes. I understand that some councils do not normally hold meetings in their offices, and I would expect disabled people generally to be able to attend council meetings even if offices are inaccessible.

§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTON
My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him whether he does not agree with me that the Community Health Councils are supposed to be the friends and the mouthpieces of the consumers of the National Health Service? Would he not agree that many 156 of these people are elderly, infirm and very lonely, and that, because of the cutback in the social services, they have not got telephones? How do they contact the secretaries of Community Health Councils in the first place, therefore, if they cannot get into the offices?

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, presumably the people who want to use the services will find means to let those services know. As I have already pointed out, the CHCs are prepared to interview people in their own homes, and do in fact do so. We recognise that many of the buildings are quite unsuitable. The responsibility is on the Regional Health Authority to provide accommodation, but when the CHCs came into operation it was desirable to get them going quickly and to use whatever accommodation was available. As I say, we recognise that much of it is unsuitable, but this is the best that we can do at the present moment and we try to meet the needs of the disabled by seeing them either in their own homes or in an interviewing room which they will find it easy to reach.

§ Lord MAYBRAY-KING
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that quite a number of local authorities are not making this elementary provision of ramps into public buildings? Would it not be a good plan now to send a reminder to them about the necessity to provide a ramp for disabled people?

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, let me be perfectly frank. There is a question of expense here, and reluctantly I have to say that we must have regard to economy. A tremendous amount of work is put on local authorities, and there is a tremendous expense. We have had to ask them to curtail their expenditure, and at this stage I do not think we can do anything more than we are doing.

Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what guidance, in view of Government policy, was circulated when these community centres were started? Would the noble Lord not agree that the question raised by my noble friend is very important? What guidance was circulated, if it is Government policy? It seems so stupid if guidance was not circulated.

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, the noble Baroness is always in danger of accusing the Government of something they have not done. May I remind her that in November 1970—and the Government could not have acted any more quickly—a notice was sent round drawing attention to Sections 4 and 7 of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act. It drew the attention of the Regional Health Authorities to the fact that this kind of accommodation would have to be provided, and it drew attention to the need under the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act to provide facilities that would cater for disabled people. Many authorities have done so, but we realise that we still have a long way to go.

§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether a quick cut to a solution to this problem might not be achieved by approaching the architects' association? After all, every local authority has to go to an architect, and if the architects were reminded that, when they prepare plans, this provision is one of the essentials, that might be a very quick cut towards getting what we want.

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, local authorities have their own architects. It is not that one is not aware of the gravity of the situation. The difficulty is trying to meet this and, if I may say so, hundreds of other needs on a very limited amount of money.

§ The Earl of SWINTON
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord is aware that his colleague, the Minister for the Disabled, is today launching a campaign and setting up a committee to try to encourage private individuals to make their premises suitable for the disabled to enter. Would it not be a good idea if the DHSS were first of all to put its own house in order?

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, the noble Earl is being very unfair when he talks about the Department of Health and Social Security putting its own house in order. I would suggest to him that if he really goes into this matter he will find that the DHSS has done a great deal—more than one would think possible—on the amount of money it has been allowed to spend.

§ Lord SANDYS
My Lords, can the Government tell us whether the cost of answering this Question is greater than the cost of installing the ramps? Secondly, can the Government assure us that the wide-ranging and detailed consultations which were said to be taking place within the Department, and with those authorities concerned with the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970, have reached fruition on this important subject?

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for asking that question because it enables me to say something which I hoped I might be able to say. The Minister for the Disabled has recently announced the setting up of a Silver Jubilee committee on improving access to public buildings for disabled people. The purpose of the committee is to publicise and promote simple and inexpensive ways of improving access facilities, especially in places of recreation and leisure, and to consider how public attitudes on this matter can be improved. I am sure that the whole House will be pleased to learn that among the members whose names will be announced today are a number of disabled people and also the noble Lord, Lord Crawshaw.

Viscount BARRINGTON
My Lords, speaking of architects, are the Government aware that Sir Christopher Wren, the architect of the Chelsea Pensioners' Hospital, a long time ago installed a staircase with, I think, one-inch steps for the benefit of Chelsea Pensioners? Might he not be taken as an example to encourage—a great deal later and at a time when finances are no more difficult than they were then—energy to do it?

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, I am aware of that. The situation today is that one-inch steps would not be suitable for many disabled people who need ramps, lifts and moving stairs.

§ Lord PLATT
My Lords, in view of the somewhat unsatisfactory replies that the noble Lord has had to give about makeshift arrangements for the present, can he give us any real assurance for the future?

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, I do not accept that. This is the second time that the noble Lord has said that my Answers have been unsatisfactory. I do not accept that they are unsatisfactory. I consider the replies I have given today to be very satisfactory.

§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)
My Lords, I think that we should proceed. The noble Lord has another Question.