HL Deb 27 July 1977 vol 386 cc973-6

2.54 p.m.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government if, as reported, the NATO States "want President Carter to deploy the neutron in Europe" and whether the United Kingdom is committed to this view.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, as my honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence recently said in another place, the United States Government have made it clear that their devices are only in the development stage, and no decisions about deployment have yet been taken.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, President Carter has stated that the neutron bomb: presents attractive options for Western Europe". Is it not the case that The Times correspondent who was then in Brussels met the officers of NATO and that they expressed the opinion that is set down in this Question? Will Her Majesty's Government refuse to have anything to do with this new weapon, which would destroy life while retaining property?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the weapon that we are discussing is not different in its nature from other tactical nuclear weapons. But certain elements have been excluded and fewer human beings would be killed if this bomb should ever be used than in the case of existing tactical nuclear weapons.

Lord GLADWYN

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the matter of the neutron bomb is a subject that I propose to raise later this afternoon in connection with my Unstarred Question? Therefore, is it not preferable to discuss the alleged advantages and disadvantages of this new weapon in the course of a discussion, however short, rather than in answer to a Starred Question?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. This is a complex subject and a slightly longer discussion than is possible during Question Time ought to be held.

Lord GEORGE-BROWN

My Lords, since the noble Lord on the Liberal Benches has run a "trailer" for his Unstarred Question, may I put it to the noble Lord that, for good or bad reasons, we in the West seem to be closing so many of the conventional options which have been open to us that we ought to make sure that we do not close the only other options which might then be open to us?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I assume that my noble friend's question is addressed to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn.

Lord GEORGE-BROWN

My Lords, with great respect, no. The noble Lord may also find that question to be complex, although I myself find it to be a good deal more simple. However, I am addressing it to him, as Her Majesty's Minister responsible to this House.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government must keep all their options open.

Lord HANKEY

My Lords, in view of the colossal increase in Soviet armaments in the last two or three years, notably since the Helsinki Agreement, would it be sensible if, after all, Her Majesty's Government were to discourage any of their allies from undertaking further research on any lines of defence equipment?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, that would be an impossible request.

Lord DAVIES of LEEK

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of us have read about the withdrawal of 6,000 troops from Korea by Mr. Harold Brown, the United States Secretary of State for Defence, who was supported by President Carter? President Carter said that the use of the nuclear umbrella was not recommended, because its use would mean the end of those who used such weapons as well as the end of those who received them. Anybody who thinks that a nuclear weapon will solve our problems is living in "Cloud Cuckoo-land".

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, only continued peace will solve our problems, and so far we have managed to achieve it.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, may I be allowed to ask another question as an introduction to the later debate? When the Minister says that there is no difference in nature between this bomb and other nuclear bombs, is it not the case that the purpose of this bomb is to destroy life while not destroying property? Has the Minister seen the surprising but very welcome article by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, that appeared in The Times last Monday, in which he argued that this bomb should be absolutely banned because it would mean the destruction of human life while leaving houses, shops and factories still standing?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I am in favour of lessening destruction in general, be it human or be it material. If this bomb were to reduce overall destruction, in particular the destruction of civilian life, perhaps the noble Lord might decide that it was worth considering.

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, will the noble Lord and the Government bear in mind, as I am sure they do, that the purpose of these weapons is to prevent war, not to wage it?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I thought I had said that.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I apologise for asking another question. Is it not the case that this bomb, while at present intended for local use, would inevitably in war preparations be made more extensively available? Is it not also the case that the Hiroshima bomb killed 200,000 people? The Cruise missile can now kill 2 million people, so would not this bomb be used on an extensive scale to kill life everywhere?