§ 2.46 p.m.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what lessons they have learned and what they plan as a result of the picketing of Grunwick.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Employment stated in another place on 12th July, he intends to consult the parties principally concerned to see whether improvements to the law on picketing can be proposed.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, does it not bring the law into some disrepute when 18,000 miners try peacefully to persuade 260 workers in a single firm? Does it make sense to have to divert 4,000 policemen from other vital duties in order to keep some measure of order? Will the Government consider most seriously and urgently whether the law on peaceful persuasion can be clarified and peaceful persuasion made peaceful, so that employers, employees, local residents, local firms and, above all, the police are not exploited by a vicious minority dedicated to creating strife and violence?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, may I first state to the House that there has been no trouble since 11th July. Picketing has been peaceful. There have been no arrests. The noble Lord referred to a large number of miners. Certainly it is a tradition among trade unionists, when there is a difficult issue in which their comrades in another union are involved, if necessary to rally and support their comrades in arms. The trouble has arisen from outside elements—of Right and Left, may I state—who have provoked trouble and brought the police, whose conduct throughout has been magnificent, into a difficult situation.
§ Lord MURRAY of GRAVESENDMy Lords, when the Government are looking at the position of picketing, will they also look at the organisations, such as the misnamed National Association for Freedom, which have apparently also come in from outside to stir up trouble?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, when I talked about the extremes of Right and Left, that was one of the organisations I had in mind. I am not going to classify them as of Right or Left. It is a matter for noble Lords to do so.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, the question of picketing and the law relating to it obviously requires a debate at some stage and I do not want to enter into the wider issues, but there are two questions that I should like to ask the noble Lord. Is it not the case that, so far from needing clarifying, the law of picketing needs to be observed and kept since the main lines of it are perfectly plain? Does not the noble Lord think that perhaps the phrase "comrades in arms", which he used, is unfortunate? Should they not be peaceful companions supporting a peaceful cause?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, perhaps my reference to "comrades in arms" had the military connotation which the noble and learned Lord assumed; but that phrase is also used generally in the context of people helping one another, and it was in that context that I used it. Certainly I, and I know the whole House, would not condone any attempt at violent persuasion in any shape or form; it is not the tradition of this country, anyway.
175 There is a certain amount of difficulty in sorting this problem out. The law remains, it is true; the Conservative Party when in office introduced legislation in this connection, as did a previous Labour Government. My right honourable friend wants to have very prolonged and detailed consultations with all sorts of bodies; the TUC, CBI, the organisation concerned, ACAS, and above all the police representative bodies, of which there are not just one but several. He wants to consult with the Police Federation, the Chief Constables Association and many other organisations and their relevant equivalents in Scotland. There therefore arises from this situation some need for consultation. In due course the House must be advised, and in due course this Chamber will have to debate the conclusions of those discussions.
§ Lord WIGODERMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to agree that the principal lesson to be learned is that, where there is an exceptional dispute which has arisen as the result of exceptional provocation on both sides, it would be quite wrong to rush into an amendment of the law without very cool and careful consideration?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYI entirely agree, my Lords. And, of course, it is true that certain proceedings are taking place at the moment and the decisions reached may have some very important bearing on various discussions that are to take place. I entirely agree that we should not rush this and make some sort of sensational gesture. We have had enough sensational gestures. We want to see orderly and peaceful picketing and proper, normal industrial relations.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, would the Minister agree that picketing in its origin was an aspect of freedom giving the weak the right to be heard in face of the strong, but when the situation becomes reversed then picketing, as in this instance, can become an instrument of terror and, as such, raises the grave anxieties we have heard expressed?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, in reply to my noble friend, I 176 would not be so sure that originally the case was of the weak against the strong. Later on, possibly, strength grew on one side rather against the other. We must await the decisions of the two courts that are sitting.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, when the noble Lord spoke of comrades in arms, did he include the Socialist Workers' Party, who claim to have played a very prominent role during this strike latterly, planned what they call a "week of action", and are believed to be ready to start again in the middle of next month?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I condemned extremists on both sides. When I referred to comrades in arms I was referring to genuine trade unionists, men of great repute and integrity, and a movement to which I am proud to belong.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to explain—perhaps his noble friend might also do so—what was the insinuation that the National Association for Freedom was supposed to have done wrong? So far as one can see, all it was doing was helping to deliver the mail to Grunwick—
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGH— which, under the Post Office Act, was illegally being withheld.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYThat is a matter of opinion, my Lords. Many of us have the opinion that it might have been provocative action but, as I say, it is a matter of opinion. What we are concerned with here is that, in a dispute of this kind, it should be trade unionists working legitimately for their rights, and any interference from outside bodies for political or other reasons should be banned and not allowed to provoke further trouble.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, is the Minister saying that citizens of this country are not allowed to support an industrialist who is being harassed?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I think that industrialists as well as workers have their trade unions.
§ Lord CARR of HADLEYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord two questions, one specific and one general? Specifically, would the Government seriously consider approaching the TUC to see whether it is possible to develop a code of practice about picketing? I am sure my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone is right when he says that the law here is quite clear, but that it is clarity about how it should be practised and observed which is lacking. Will the noble Lord bear in mind the good effect of what was an informal code of practice in the miners' strike of 1973–74? There was an informal code of practice which had very beneficial results. My general question is to ask the Government whether they will consider on this and all occasions giving a strong public lead, not underestimating the moral authority which Ministers have, in making clear to everybody concerned the difference between picketing and demonstrations? In this country both are legitimate activities, but there is a difference between them and it ought to be made clear.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I certainly accept the noble Lord's last suggestion and I assure him that it will be passed on to my right honourable friend, who is as anxious about this matter as we all are. Regarding a code of practice, I certainly agree that orderly procedures voluntarily adopted by those involved in disputes could do much to help ensure that picketing is peaceful. The idea of a code of practice on the subject will of course be one of the possibilities that will be considered, and I thank the noble Lord for his remarks.
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)I suggest that we have had a very fair discussion on this Question, my Lords. Perhaps we might move on to the next Question.