HL Deb 12 July 1977 vol 385 cc791-5

3.42 p.m.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement being made in another place in answer to a Private Notice Question on postal services in the NW2 area. The Statement is as follows:

"The Post Office tells me that it has closed the Cricklewood sorting office due to the suspension of staff for refusing to work as directed. The Post Office has advised its customers that there will be no deliveries or collections in the London NW2 area until further notice and therefore that mail should not be addressed there. Customers resident in, or who work in, the NW2 area have been advised to post their stamped mail elsewhere. The Post Office regrets the inconvenience to the public."

That concludes the Statement.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, I put down this Private Notice Question in your Lordships' House, as noble Lords may realise, in order that we may keep step with what is being said and done in another place about this worrying matter. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, for having repeated the Answer which has been given there. Does the noble Lord realise that the public is becoming increasingly anxious about this affair? It is, I think, only a few days since the Government announced their own court of inquiry, which was welcomed by all the Parties in both Houses of Parliament, and coupled that announcement with an appeal to those concerned, and those not concerned, to enable the court of inquiry, which has just begun, to carry on its investigation in an atmosphere of calm. Since then we have had the appalling violence of yesterday which many of us saw on television.

This Question and this Statement relate only to mail in NW2, but the mail affected is not limited to Grunwick, but extends to all the perfectly innocent inhabitants of that area, who apparently cannot receive their mail at all, nor can they post their mail, except elsewhere. The Question was confined to the NW2 area, but we have heard on the wireless today about the spreading of action to Nottingham. All this is in complete defiance of the Government's appeal. All this is in flagrant violation of the law. One wonders where the rule of law is going in this country.

Has not the time come for the Prime Minister to go on television and appeal to his supporters directly to obey the law and obey the appeal, which has been made by the Government, to allow the investigation to go through in peace and quiet? Is it the case that the people who are concerned in this matter have no respect for the law, or is it that they have no control whatever over some of their own followers? The Government must begin now to realise that this is a matter which is shaking the foundations of Parliamentary government in this country, and I ask the noble Lord whether he has authority to make a firm Statement in this House, or whether his colleagues have authority to make a firm Statement on behalf of the Government in another place, because this matter is becoming an extremely dangerous threat to our constitutional liberties.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the concern felt by the public, as mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, is of course shared by the Government and by both Houses of Parliament. We all share the concern over the way in which this particular incident is escalating. In answer to the Private Notice Question, I must devote my attention to the specific issues involved in the NW2 area, although I can touch upon one or two other related points. At the outset, I should say that what the noble and learned Lord has said must carry weight because of his very distinguished political past, and I am certain that my noble Leader and the Prime Minister must take notice of what the noble and learned Lord is saying today.

I should like to touch upon the question of the spreading of the strike as a result of the reported—I only say "reported"—blacking of Grunwick mail which had been posted outside the London area. I understand that this posting was an action initiated by the National Association for Freedom, and whereas I think most of the mail was in fact dispatched from various areas in the country, in certain areas the dispatch was refused, and the staff of those offices are at the moment seeking the advice of their union, which is the Union of Post Office Workers. I understand that the Union of Post Office Workers Executive is meeting this afternoon to consider the advice which it should give to its members, and I think that noble Lords in the House as a whole will agree that the Post Office Executive has behaved constitutionally and properly throughout the whole of this very difficult affair.

Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the most puzzling part of this affair is the absence of a direct appeal by the Prime Minister, or some senior Cabinet Minister, asking people to obey the law? There have been indirect Statements, but when, in another place and here, Ministers have been invited to use the authority which only they have, as the elected leaders of Parliament, to make a direct appeal, for some reason they have been reluctant, and they have not done that so far. Is there no chance at all of the suggestion of my noble and learned friend being taken up, so that the Prime Minister appears on television, which is the usual way nowadays for letting people see that something authoritative is coming from an authoritative source, or must we still make do with these indirect Statements, which in themselves are ambiguous and do not carry the weight necessary to bring about adherence to law and order which a direct approach would have?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, this is a developing situation, and obviously steps must be taken in line with the developments. The noble Lord asked me whether there is any chance that a Statement such as has been suggested will be made. Following upon the appeal of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham—with his distinguished past—I am certain that this is something which will be given the closest consideration.

Lord LEATHERLAND

My Lords, is it not a fact that this case has been taken to the High Court, and is it not, therefore, undesirable that politicians should interfere with the proceedings of the High Court by making Statements over the head of the court? Furthermore, is it not a fact that the High Court has this afternoon decided that the company must make available to the union opportunities to recruit members in the factory and to recognise the union?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, my noble friend has been talking about the High Court. I understand that the court of inquiry which was held recently has in fact given a ruling this afternoon—I have just seen it on the tape—in favour of ACAS, but I have no more than what appears on the tape.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, I think the noble Lord is slightly confused. As I understand the matter—and I hope I shall be corrected, either by the Lord Chancellor or by some other member of the Government—the Lord Chief Justice was due to give judgment in the ACAS case in the High Court at two o'clock today. That is a proceeding wholly outside the court of inquiry which was announced last week. I have not seen the result of the Lord Chief Justice's judgment, although what the noble Lord has just said, which I take it referred to it, does not surprise me, as a matter of fact, as an earnest seeker after truth with some experience of legal proceedings. So that matter is now no longer sub judice unless an appeal is entered.

As regards the court of inquiry, of course, the sub judice rule does not apply; but what I was seeking to impress upon the House (and I believe with some measure of support from all quarters of the House) was that the questions which I was asking were directed to the open defiance of the law yesterday outside the factory gates; to the open defiance of the law at Cricklewood, to which the Question was primarily directed and which affects all the inhabitants in the NW2 area; and to the spreading of that sort of action by the Post Office to outside offices. These matters have nothing to do with the court of inquiry at the moment—they simply make the proceedings of the court of inquiry more difficult—and they have nothing whatever to do with the judgment delivered by the Lord Chief Justice.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I apologise to the noble and learned Lord for getting confused on which court was dealing with what matter. I came here today really to answer questions relating to Section 58 of the 1953 Post Office Act. The law on picketing, of course, is something different, and I understand that that is receiving urgent attention.

Lord LEE of NEWTON

My Lords, is my noble friend saying that the Government are now considering changing the law on picketing? Is he aware that some of us who have been concerned with these things for many years are astounded that people can get away with what has been going on? Is he aware that there are now apparently at large professional demonstrators who have never carried a trade union card in their lives, and whose actions tend to denigrate the whole basis of British trade unionism? Will he therefore make sure that the Cabinet is looking very closely at the law on picketing, which is apparently now being abused?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his most helpful remarks.