HL Deb 12 July 1977 vol 385 cc770-3

2.47 p.m.

Lord GRIDLEY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the decision of the Association of First Division Civil Servants to seek affiliation to the TUC will not affect the impartiality of the Service.

The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)

My Lords, it is of course vital to Ministers in any Government to have a non-political Civil Service upon whose loyalty and impartial advice they are able to rely. The First Division Association has recently restated its belief in the need for it to remain a non-political association. I have no doubt that it will continue to uphold that tradition.

Lord GRIDLEY

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for his Answer. May I ask him whether or not he believes that there is a danger that, if these civil servants become affiliated to the TUC—whose job it is to secure improved pay and conditions for their officers—it might conceivably lead to a request for the withdrawal of their services? They are senior members of the Civil Service. Does he not agree that this might bring them into conflict with the Government? I accept what the noble Lord has said about this, but is there not an underlying danger here? Also, is not the degree of impartiality rather impaired?

Lord PEART

My Lords, the noble Lord will appreciate that I have already expressed my confidence in the ability of the Association to maintain its traditions of loyalty and impartiality. Also I believe that the Association could make a useful contribution to the counsels of the TUC. No, I am not worried about that. The noble Lord must appreciate that a leading political Conservative spokesman in another place said that, even though he regretted the narrowness of the majority, in view of the closeness of the result, he hoped the Association would proceed cautiously. There was no criticism.

Lord LEE of NEWTON

My Lords, is my noble friend satisfied that such an affiliation will have no deleterious effect upon the TUC?

Lord PEART

Yes, my Lords.

Lord BLYTON

My Lords, is the Minister aware that Tory philosophy is that a man has the right to join or not to join a trade union? Why, therefore, are they quibbling now if this Association wants to join the TUC?

Lord PEART

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend, who has expressed very clearly the philosophy of the Conservative Party. If that is what it is, then I do not dissent from it.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY

My Lords, while the question whether the Association should join the TUC and the kind of relationship that there should be is an important and delicate one, does the noble Lord agree that the non-political nature of the British Civil Service is a priceless asset which it would be a great mistake to give up?

Lord PEART

My Lords, I implied that in my reply.

Lord COOPER of STOCKTON HEATH

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that this Question is based on a great deal of misunderstanding. When a body wishes to affiliate to the TUC, is it not the case that the TUC has to be satisfied whether it is acceptable or not?

Lord PEART

My Lords, I agree. It is not for the Government to interfere in this matter in any way.

Lord DUNCAN-SANDYS

My Lords, will Ministers be free to join the picket lines in Government offices?

Lord PEART

My Lords, that is another matter. It may well be that Conservatives may join the picket lines on occasions. No doubt they have done.

Lord GRINDLEY

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one final question? Has it been decided to dispense entirely with the Whitley Councils, which provided a very good way of carrying on these discussions?

Lord PEART

No, my Lords; not at all.

Baroness HORNSBY-SMITH

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that this is not a case of civil servants joining a trade union, because they have their own very powerful and very effective trade unions? Would he not also agree that we have every reason to be extraordinarily proud about the impartiality of our Civil Service, and that the headache is not that they would be joining the main organisation of unionship but joining an organisation with direct affiliations to one political Party, which might create a conflict of interest? Members on both sides of this House who have been privileged to serve with those civil servants have, through the years, come to rely on their absolute political impartiality, and we are genuinely concerned, though not from any Party political point of view, that there might be a conflict of interest.

Lord PEART

My Lords, I cannot accept what the noble Baroness has said. If she examines the relationship of the various unions with the TUC she will understand that her views are not really views that can be sustained.

Lord DAVIES of PENRHYS

My Lords, will my noble friend agree the possibility that, if this union joins the TUC, it may be less effective and less important?

Lord PEART

My Lords, all I am saying is that, whatever the Association does, it is its decision and the Government cannot interfere with it.