§ 11.10 a.m.
531§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have now considered the report from the Brompton Hospital on patients suffering from the toxic effects of TDI (toluene di-isocyanate) and whether they still propose to continue to maintain a control of 0.02 parts per million of air as an effective safeguard.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYunderstand from the chairman of the Health and Safety Commission that there have been no recent published studies of the work done by the Brompton Hospital on the toxic effects of TDI.
On the present information available, the Health and Safety Executive considers that the control of 0.02 parts per million does provide an effective safeguard for the health of normal workers. Nevertheless, as with all standards it is kept under review in the light of fresh evidence. It is recognised however that exposure of workers to concentrations of TDI above this figure may lead to sensitisation. In such cases it is difficult if not impossible to set any level which offers protection to such a sensitised worker on subsequent exposure.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, would my noble friend recall that the insertion in his Answer of the word, "published" is to assert something that was not asserted in the Question? Is he now saying that he and his Department have not heard of comments in newspapers like The Sunday Times on the report provided by the Brompton Hospital at the request of trade unions representing workers who claim to be poisoned? It is said—and I have not seen the report—that if the present safety level were divided by 20, according to their computations, a concentration of 0.001 parts per million would still be dangerous to health and life. Finally, will the noble Lord say whether they have fixed their 0.02 parts per million figure because that is the lowest percentage which they can readily detect in situ without expensive scientific instruments?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, although there have been no published reports, there is constant contact between the Health and Safety Executive and Brompton Hospital. A 532 member of the Health and Safety Executive staff specialising in cardiac problems is working in close relation with the professor at Brompton Hospital, Professor J. Pepys, who is dealing with this matter. Furthermore, there is not an air of contentment about this so far as the Health and Safety Executive are concerned. They have published safety rules which have already been made available. The Health and Safety Executive and the Medical Research Council are at an advanced level in the planning of a study of the amounts of respiratory disease present in workers exposed to this chemical.
Progressive investigation is going on. There are extremely difficult technical problems in monitoring, in providing a suitable monitor, and so on, but to say that the Department is satisfied is certainly an understatement. It is not true. The Department is following the matter very closely indeed. I am aware of the action of the trade unions, carrying out their responsible duties as usual, in making approaches at the moment. although not to my Department. They are making approaches in other directions and are conferring with employers at the present moment about the possible provision of a substitute for this material.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, for the benefit of the ignorant—which means, for this purpose, myself, and perhaps other members of the public—can the noble Lord tell us, first, how many workers are at risk in this matter? Secondly, what is the substance used for? Is it a high explosive, an insecticide or a component of lipstick, for example? Are there substitutes available and how important are the products into which it goes?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I cannot give the number of workers involved. The problem has arisen mainly over printing. It apparently gives a clearer print but gives off fumes which can affect some people. The problem has arisen in the printing industry, but the chemical is also used in other ways: in polyurethane paint and varnish, in the manufacture of plastic foam and so on. There has been some concern about the effect of this chemical. I understand the trade unions are discussing the matter with the manufacturer with a 533 view to an alternative being provided. That is a discussion which is going on outside the Department. The Department is concerned with the health risks, and naturally everything is being done to ensure that workers are safeguarded with regard to the use of this chemical.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to look first at his brief Answer to my Question and wonder whether, on reflection, it did not contain some element of suggestio falsi or suppressio veri, as is clearly shown by his very long second answer? Is the noble Lord saying that he is unaware of the fact that workers near Liverpool are threatening to strike until the use of this material is stopped? Is he not aware that I had a similar Answer to a similar Question—I would say roughly at least 12 months ago, because I have not the date—giving the same assurances? Does the noble Lord realise that this is a serious question?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, most certainly I realise it is a serious question, and I can assure my noble friend that the Department is also very concerned about this. I believe the unions are pressing for sensitisation to this chemical to be made a prescribed disease, but that is not a matter for the Department of Employment; it is a matter for another Department and the unions are pressing them on this. I must apologise to my noble friend that, at the beginning, my control of Latin is minimal and, therefore, I could not understand exactly what the phrase was. I personally try to translate initials into legible and understandable English.
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that when some chemical of this type, which can be injurious to health, is used, strict precautions ought to be taken and that the use of respirators is probably desirable in handling such a material?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYYes my Lords, the Department is very well aware of this. My noble friend who put down the Question has been to see the work of the Health and Safety Executive and was very impressed by their work concerning asbestos. As I say, the Department is well aware of the problem 534 and I have here an available document, which is issued to all manufacturers, trade unions and others, on the use of this chemical and the safety precautions that must be taken. In one case in Bristol where a worker died of asthma, the Department is satisfied that all safety precautions were taken, and that is, of course, a pointer for continued research into the effect of this chemical.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEBut, my Lords, where things are of known danger, is not the simplest way of protecting the worker to prohibit the use of the material, where possible? Does the noble Lord know whether, for example, the Health Organisation of the United States, which is very particular about such matters, allows it to be used in the United States? Has he explored with the manufacturers possible alternatives to the chemical in this country?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, unfortunately I am unable to give a direct answer to the first part of the question put by the noble and learned Lord, because I have not the details available. So far as a substitute is concerned, negotiations are going on in this matter between the trade unions and the manufacturers.
The Earl of HALSBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is a very big difference between incorporating such a substance in an end-product like printers' ink and its use as a chemical intermediate in the chemical industry by people who are accustomed to handling dangerous chemicals? Would he also agree that the printing trade has got along without toluene di-isocyanate for centuries and it would be a very simple matter to withdraw it until we have more knowledge of the subject?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I will certainly pass that information on to my right honourable friend and to the Department, but this is a matter on which I cannot give a specific answer at the moment. I would agree with the noble Earl that this is not an immediate problem, and it has been building up over a period of some years.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that whatever 535 artefact or liquid they use to make print more visible, modern printing and typographical errors, through the use of the computer, are greater than they have ever been in the history of printing?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, that question hardly calls for an answer. I would advocate a visit to the optician and the provision of better spectacles.
§ Lord DRUMALBYNMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one more question? He used the words "manufacture" and "use". Does the danger arise principally in manufacture, where safety measures are relatively easy to enforce, or in the use of this chemical?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, the short answer to that question is that the danger is probably more in the use than in the manufacture. I give a spot answer on that, but that is my reaction.