§ 2.46 p.m.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the report that arms intended for Guatemala were intercepted when an aeroplane landed in Barbados, what action has been taken since and what is the present situation between Guatemala and Belize.
344§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the Government of Barbados have, I understand, claimed forfeiture of this consignment of ammunition under their laws and further action is a matter for the Barbadian courts. For our part, we deplore the supply of arms to Guatemala that could be used against the British garrison in Belize; in this instance we are making representations to the Portuguese Government, since the consignment was loaded in Lisbon. We continue to seek a negotiated solution to our differences with Guatemala over Belize and the joint Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs is now in Washington for talks with the Foreign Minister of Guatemala.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, the first half of which was very satisfactory, can he give me the assurance that Belize will remain independent under the Crown until they choose to do otherwise?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can give that assurance. That is the basis on which our negotiations are proceeding.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, will the Minister answer two questions: First, has he any evidence of the rumour that the plane that picked up the arms in Lisbon started from Stansted; and have the Government made any inquiries as to how and why this particular plane should have been allowed to go on this mission taking arms to Guatemala? Secondly, and this is a different point, can the Minister say whether he has any information as to the outcome of the discussions during the meeting of the Organisation of American States, whether the question of Belize was discussed and what is the attitude of the American Government in this matter?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the aircraft which has been detained in Barbados and which is Argentinian-owned, arrived at Stansted on 23rd June from Las Palmas carrying aero engines for servicing and left empty on 24th June for Lisbon. There is evidence that the arms consignment, 26 tons of ammunition for rifles, was loaded in Lisbon on 24th June, the date of the return from Stansted empty. The aircraft was detained 345 after landing in Barbados on the following day 25th June. The first question put by the noble Baroness is, I think, satisfactorily answered in that there is no additional complication to this arising from the fact that the aircraft delivered in the normal course a commercial consignment to Stansted.
On the second point, about the attitude of the Organisation of American States and, specifically, of the U.S., I could not specify the present attitude of the OAS, except to say that the Northern South American States are pretty unanimous in supporting the reasonable position that Belize should proceed to independence on a basis of integrity and after peaceful negotiations with its neighbour, Guatemala. That is the attitude of our American friends; but, even more importantly, a point which I know the noble Baroness had in mind, is that twice in the recent past the United Nations have gone on record almost unanimously that any change in the relationship of these two countries should proceed only on the basis of peaceful negotiation and agreement.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, have the Government of Barbados had their attention drawn to the "Alabama" case, in which this country was mulcted of heavy damages for allowing arms to leave this country which were intended to be used against America? It seems apt.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I would not underrate the resources of the research departments of the countries concerned which are looking into the points which my noble friend has raised.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in the "Alabama" case the United Kingdom Government were prepared to submit to arbitration, whereas, so far as I know, the Guatemalans have not so far consented to that procedure? The Minister has said that this aircraft was registered in Argentina. Has he made any inquiries whether the Argentine authorities have knowledge of the cargo that was being ferried in the aircraft, of its destination and the use to which the arms might be put? If, as 346 would appear likely, they had such knowledge, is this not an outrageous act by a so-called friendly State? Would the noble Lord take steps to see that it is drawn to the attention of the United Nations?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am afraid that the noble Lord builds an edifice of outrage on a whole series of hypotheses. I said that my understanding was that this aircraft was Argentine owned. Beyond that, I would not care to speculate this afternoon.
§ Lord REIGATEMy Lords, will the noble Lord say what is the attitude of the Mexican Government in this matter? They have a strong interest in seeing that Belize remains independent.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I cannot say what the Mexican Government's attitude is specifically to the situation as it seems to have arisen. I agree with the noble Lord that they have a very strong and constructive attitude to this problem. They and contiguous States—I forbore to quote the OAS for reasons which I know the noble Baroness appreciates—closely interested in the stability of this area, have comported themselves and co-operated in exemplary fashion. I specifically include the Mexican Government in that description.
§ Lord GORE-BOOTHMy Lords, as this difficulty is too often represented as being simply a quarrel between Guatemala and Britain, may I ask the noble Lord if he would confirm the interpretation which, some time back, I put on his Answer to the noble Baroness, that the people of Belize prefer our policy in this area to what the Guatemalans are seeking to impose by force?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can certainly confirm that. The noble Lord, as usual, puts it absolutely precisely. The view of the Belizeans, at least at the moment, is that they would prefer to remain as they are rather than to accept what has so far been offered to them. We support the Belizeans on the principle of self-determination of peoples.