HUMANITARIAN LAW IN ARMED CONFLICT (Hansard, 5 July 1977)

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)
My Lords, the fourth and final session of the Diplomatic Conference on the Reaffirmation and Development of Humanitarian Law in Armed Conflict began in Geneva on 17th March, and concluded on 10th June, with the adoption by consensus of two protocols additional to the Geneva Conventions of 1949. These will be open for signature from 11th December. Copies of the texts adopted have been placed in the Library of the House. They raise many complex issues, not only legal, but also political and military. In conjunction with our allies, Her Majesty's Government will be giving the texts careful study with a view to deciding the question of signature and eventual ratification.

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, having had the advantage of reading these decisions, I should like to put this matter to the Minister. I welcome particularly the two proposals for the prohibition of saturation bombing of civilians and their deliberate starvation, as well as the fact that the defaulters shall go to a Nuremburg trial for war crimes. Are not all these 156 prohibitions absolutely irrelevant in nuclear war? If Her Majesty's Government sign the protocols, will they not have to admit this by a reservation excluding nuclear wars?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord's welcome to the very useful and helpful provisions of these two additional protocols. As to his second point, of course anything that we do in regard to what might be called conventional arms control and restriction can be nullified by the enormity of nuclear conflict. I do not think that that is a reason why we should not continue to do our best in these directions. If we succeed on the ground, we may eventually succeed in the sky.

§ Baroness ELLES
My Lords, does the Minister agree that these additional protocols very much widen the scope of international law in armed conflict, particularly in relation to national liberation movements? Can the Minister give any indication of the Government's position with regard to this additional protection to national liberation movements in armed conflict?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
Yes, my Lords, I entirely agree that the introduction of what are called national liberation movements brings forward a new concept. However, we have taken particular note of the fact that the intentions of Article 44, to which I think the noble Baroness referred in particular, extend POW status to guerrilla or resistance fighters who are members of organised armed forces taking part in armed conflicts of an international character. I think that there is a double condition here which will prove reassuring to those who may prima facie feel a little apprehensive of certain developments from these protocols.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON
My Lords, does this provide further protection for air hijackers so long as they wear the appropriate resistance button in their lapel?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
No, my Lords; as I think we made clear on 13th May, when we previously had exchanges on this matter as a result of a Question put by, I think, the noble 157 Lord, Lord Monson, there is nothing here to make it easier for hijackers or similar operators to pursue their activities.

§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE
My Lords, the noble Lord has said—and it is to be welcomed—that copies of these draft protocols will be available in the Library. As not every subject of the Queen is a Member of this House, or of another place, will these protocols not be on sale in any printed form as well?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I should like to look at the question of the more public dissemination of these two protocols. They are very lengthy and embody about 150 articles. I will look into the point raised by the noble and learned Lord. I would point out that we are at a very early stage in all this. The protocols will not he open for signature until 11th December. Thereafter, if we decide to sign, it will be necessary for us to decide whether to ratify, and, as noble Lords know, on these matters the processes in this country, and in this bicameral Parliament, are properly lengthy.

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, I should like to ask a question in support of what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, has said. Surely these decisions, applying to the danger of war, after four years' discussion are of enormous importance to every citizen in this country. Ought not our public to be aware of them? Is it not possible to print these protocols, so that they may be available to all those who are interested?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, certainly I take full note of what the noble Lord has said, particularly in support of the point made so clearly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone.

§ The Earl of ONSLOW
My Lords, would the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts please comment or give his views on this matter in relation to international liberation movements? If this arose in relation to the IRA, which would claim to be international—in other words, between the Republic of Ireland and the 158 United Kingdom—how would that conflict be settled as between what the United Kingdom would say and what the IRA might say? I am groping a little in the dark, my Lords, and I realise that I am not making myself completely clear, but I hope the noble Lord will appreciate what I mean.

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, perhaps I can help. It is an important point. As I said, it extends this status to guerrilla or resistance fighters who are members of organised armed forces taking part in armed conflicts of an international character. As I said on the 13th May, having looked at this very carefully with my colleagues, in no way now or in the foreseeable future could the IRA fit in with those conditions.

§ Lord MONSON
My Lords, would the Minister agree that there is something of a paradox in the fact that the majority of the countries participating in the conference appear to favour relatively tender treatment for terrorists and guerrillas, relatively harsh treatment for those who find themselves on the losing side in a civil war and positively draconian treatment for those categorised as mercenaries?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I would not care to generalise in quite that way about the participants in this very useful and necessary conference. On the other hand, I find it rather encouraging that countries which possibly have not in the past approached these matters in quite the way we and our allies have, are now joining with us in an international conference to create a code of humanitarian conduct, even in the conduct of war.