§ 2.50 p.m.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they agree that the time has now come for the Commonwealth Prime Ministers to consider the suspension of Uganda's membership of the Commonwealth pending the return of that country's Government to an observance of the basic human rights of its citizens and whether they will bring that question to the attention of the Prime Ministers of the other Commonwealth countries at the earliest opportunity.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, I understand the strong feelings aroused by the recent reports from Uganda. I share them. This is, however, a delicate issue with far-reaching implications. It would need very careful consideration.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Is he aware that it is a question of suspension and not of expulsion from the Commonwealth and that it is directed at the Government, not at the people, of Uganda? In that context, does the noble Lord not think that the Commonwealth, which contains people of all colours and members of almost every religion, is the ideal forum in which to expose recent events in Uganda for what they are and by this means to demonstrate that it is not merely 176 Christians and not only white people who regard these events with a revulsion which is shared by this House and which was expressed by the Prime Minister in another place yesterday?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, yes, indeed. I appreciate the points made by the noble Lord—in particular that this effects not only Christians but people of good faith everywhere. What the noble Lord said about the nature of the Commonwealth is very important. By definition, as an international association of people of all religions, many languages and many colours, it could be the right forum for deciding issues of this kind. However, it could also be a forum where new and abrasive feelings might be aroused, with the very best of intentions otherwise. This is what I meant and it is what my right honourable friend meant when he spoke in the other place yesterday. The noble Lord's suggestion will need careful consideration, and it will get it.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, I support the sentiments of the noble Lord, Lord Elton, 100 per cent. Could not the noble Lord's Question be reinforced by the wonderfully courageous statement made by the most reverend Primate on the news this morning, when he issued a challenge to the United Nations asking for all of us to get together and look into this terrible régime? I spent nearly three months as the delegate in the Human Rights Committee of the United Nations. There were times when the air was thick with hypocrisy because the only condemnations of violations against human rights were against South Africa, Chile and Israel. There was not a whisper about the Amin régime. The least we can do is to support the request of the noble Lord, Lord Elton.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am sure that noble Lords and others will have noted with respect and attention the remarks made by the Archbishop in the news programme. They do indeed come close to what the noble Lord said in his Question. Noble Lords will know that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister stated in another place yesterday that our delegation to the Commission on Human Rights in Geneva 177 has been instructed to call for an investigation into what has transpired in Uganda. This investigation would embrace the whole issue of human rights in Uganda.
§ Lord FLETCHERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that whatever is done about the suspension of Uganda's membership of the Commonwealth, the threatened arrival of President Amin in this country would create very considerable resentment among many sections of the community? Will the Minister consider the desirability of conveying that to President Amin?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, there is no doubt that my noble friend is right and I assure him that the second part of his question, which contains a suggestion, is very much in the mind of my right honourable friend and the Government.
§ The Lord Bishop of WINCHESTERMy Lords, can the Minister tell me whether Her Majesty's Government understand that, apart from the tribal structure, the Churches of Uganda constitute the only institution which can still give to its members a sense of solidarity and security and a focus of resistance? In the light of that, do Her Majesty's Government recognise that an all out attack on the Christians of the country is an attempt to undermine and destroy that remaining focus of cohesion among the people? Therefore, are Her Majesty's Government prepared to treat these events not so much as an instance of religious conflict and persecution as an issue of the human rights of a whole people?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, yes, indeed; human rights include, at the very summit, a respect for religious conviction and practice. However, I very much appreciate what the right reverend Prelate has said about our considering very carefully how best to sustain our own people, however few, in Uganda, who are almost all Christians and—although they are there clearly by their own considered choice—how best to protect them and, indeed, in the larger sense how best to sustain and help the people of Uganda as a whole. This is the consideration in which the Government, and any other Government, would have to engage very carefully.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, irrespective of the wider considerations to which the Minister has very properly drawn our attention, do the Government not think it likely that if this creature comes to the Commonwealth Conference no self-respecting person will be present at any function or meeting which he may attend?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, yes; I should not disagree with that prognostication, and a great many others that have been voiced here today and which I welcome. I hope that Hansard is perused very carefully in Kampala.
§ The Lord Bishop of SAINT EDMUNDSBURY and IPSWICHMy Lords, is the Minister aware that when I was in Nairobi at the weekend, for the memorial service to the Archbishop of Uganda, I was approached by a considerable number of Ugandan refugees—some of whom are very responsible people whom I know and have known for years—who had arrived that very day? Does the Minister know that there is widespread, deep fear throughout Uganda that the killing of the past may be far exceeded by the killing possibly of the present and the future, and that the Ugandan people—and those who spoke to me were representative of a considerable section—believe that only some kind of outside intervention can help? Are Her Majesty's Government aware that, although it is clearly right that the matter should be referred to the United Nations Commission, some kind of speedy action is of the greatest importance?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am most grateful to the right reverend Prelate. We share his fear and his sense of urgency. I must repeat that the best course of action designed to dispel that fear and to overtake that emergency remains to be considered with very great care indeed.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, in view of the deep anguish that is caused not only in Christian circles but, as has already been stated here, in many other circles, is not this the time for something to be done which will clearly indicate to the President of Uganda and his colleagues that the world will not stand for this 179 kind of terrorism, for this horrific set of actions which have been undertaken in recent times, and also before recent times, by the President? Is it not really an occasion on which we, as a civilised nation, can turn round to Amin and tell him bluntly that he is not welcome in this country, and that if he comes the people here will be deeply distressed about his presence? Is it not indicative of what often occurs there that, happily, the 95 people who were saved in the Entebbe incident owe their lives to the fact that they were rescued?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I cannot quarrel with my noble friend in the least. It is right to point out that the right reverend Prelate and I, in referring to people of the Christian faith, indicated the wider circle of concern and danger which would include all faiths. As to the suggestions which my noble friend has made, I repeat that this House is probably one of the best places in which these views can be made known. Let us hope that from this House, and in other ways, the message will reach the right quarter.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend and the Government to bear in mind that if the association between the British Commonwealth and Uganda is severed, then a new association between Uganda and Communist Russia or Communist China might very soon be established?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that is indeed possible, and my noble friend is quite right to bring up the possibility. With his question and my answer, I would hope, in my other capacity, that I might invite the House to pass on to other business.