§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they accept the importance of Seal Sands to migratory birds and will reconsider their decision to allocate the whole of the existing area of mud flats to industry.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the final decisions have not yet been taken by the Secretary of State in his consideration of the policies and proposals in the Tees-side Structure Plan, including those relating to the unreclaimed area of Seal Sands. Draft modifications proposed by the Secretary of State have been advertised and placed on deposit, and the objections and representations received will be considered before the decisions on the Structure Plan are issued. I should point out that the modifications proposed by the Secretary of State in respect of this area of Seal Sands have been supported by the Cleveland Council.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer, may I ask whether, in view of the fact that the Port Authority has now revised its estimate of trade for the Tees for 1981 from 80 million tons down to possibly only 30 million tons—between 30 million and 60 million tons—and in view of the fact that the Port Authority in a letter dated 16th December last stated that it did not expect this land to be used for 20 to 30 years, it is possible that the reference to priority for industry by the Secretary of State could be described in the panel's words as "highly speculative"; 170 and, therefore, is it not possible that it should be reserved for the SSSI, as it is at the moment?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the object of the Structure Plan is to give some indication of the uses that might be made of the various areas within a county's authority, and the suggestion made at the moment in the draft plan, that Seal Sands should be earmarked for future use for industrial purposes, does not mean that it is going to happen right away. It means that, as and when the demand builds up, as the draft plan stands at present it is suitable land for that sort of development. It certainly will not happen overnight, and until that time presumably the birds will still be there and it will still be an area of special scientific interest.
§ Lord TRANMIREMy Lords, is there not a difficulty that in the neighbouring sites of special scientific interest there are no mud flats as there are on Seal Sands, and as these migrant waders cannot change either their feeding habits or their diet we shall lose them if this plan goes forward?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I think perhaps that is a possibility; but when the decision is made that Seal Sands will be used for this purpose there will have to be consultations between the Port Authority and the Nature Conservancy Council in order to try to sort out which are the ideal alternative sites. Then of course we may have the difficulty of how we are to educate the birds to go to the alternative sites.
§ Lord SANDYSMy Lords, are the Government aware that only 13 out of 68 possible sites under the Ramscar Convention have been listed, and does this not indicate a lack of interest by the Government in the wet lands?
§ Baroness STEDMANNo, my Lords, because the 13 sites that we have listed and have registered under the Convention comprise something like 20 per cent. of the total number of wet lands that have been implemented throughout the world.
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that while it is extremely important that we should pay attention to the wildlife, including the 171 migratory wildlife coming to this country, the people of the country also matter? Unemployment in that part of the country is extremely high, and the development along the Tees is most important for the future of the industry there. Will my noble friend bear in mind that it is a tragedy if the Port Authority has decided to drop its requirement from 80 million tons a year to 30 million tons a year?—because this is a human tragedy, not just a matter of numbers.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, every case is considered on its merits, and so far as my Secretary of State is concerned, he will have the task of considering how to balance the environmental claims and the environmental desires against the needs of industry in the development of the area to which my noble friend has referred.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that I have some knowledge of Seal Sands since I represented that area in another place, and I was rather surprised at the question asked by the noble Lord when he mentioned that no development would take place for at least 30 years? I am grateful to the Minister for the interest that is now being taken in regard to the development of these sites on Seal Sands relative to Tees-side.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, at the moment we are considering the Structure Plan, and that is what is in the mind of the Secretary of State.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, will the noble Baroness bear in mind that the employment of humans is far more important than provision for migratory birds, who have the whole world in front of them? And is it not the case that Seal Sands industrial and maritime development is one of the out-standing economic successes of this country in the last 25 years? It fronts upon Europe and has a most important petro-chemical industry which is competing satisfactorily and enthusiastically all over the world.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, as I said, it is a question of weighing up the balance between the environmental needs and the needs of industry.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness not to be blackmailed by the employment arguments represented as justifying the destruction of almost everything else? With regard to Seal Sands, they are undoubtedly important even in their present reduced area; they are the only site of their kind between the Farne Islands and the Humber.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I am not proposing to be blackmailed and I do not think I am being blackmailed. What I am saying is that the Secretary of State has to bear in mind the balance between the environmental needs and the needs of industry. I have confidence that my Secretary of State will weigh these two factors in his mind.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, perhaps your Lordships may not be aware that the clock did not start until four minutes after the commencement of business and should now have registered eight minutes. We have 36 speakers tonight. It think it is the feeling of your Lordships that we should proceed to the next Question.