§ 2.55 p.m.
§ Lord CROOKMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their attention has been called to the warning issued by reputable manufacturers (such as ICI and Du Pont) as to the necessary precautions to be observed in handling chlorodiflouoromethane; and what action, if any, has been or is being taken to investigate, in the public interest, the suggestion that the chemical is a cancer-causing agent.
Lord ORAMMy Lords, the chairman of the Health and Safety Commission informs me that Imperial Chemical Industries Limited informed the Health and Safety Executive of the results of a test carried out on chlorodiflouoromethane which suggested that the chemical might be a cancer-causing agent. The results came from a screening test involving the induction of mutations in micro-organisms and cannot be taken as conclusive that the chemical would cause cancer either in experimental animals or in human beings. The Trades Union Congress medical adviser is also aware of this information. Both ICI and Du Pont have supplied the Executive with copies of the advice given to their customers outlining precautionary measures to be taken when handling this chemical. The Executive has further been informed that ICI has started a long-term study with experimental animals in order to resolve the suspicion of cancer-causing effect. Du Pont has also announced its intention to undertake similar long-term studies in the United States of America. The Executive is following closely this work and will consider the implications when the results of the studies are known.
§ Lord CROOKMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that excellent reply as regards general content. Is it the intention to get quick results in relation to this matter, and not slow ones, bearing in mind that I received that kind of reply when I first raised questions about asbestos and scrotal cancer as long as 20 years ago? No one thought then that anything was wrong, but look at what has happened since!
Lord ORAMMy Lords, we recognise the urgency of this matter, but, on the other hand, the kind of experiments that have to take place will necessarily take some time.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that not everyone would agree with the "ratomorphic" approach to these studies that have been outlined? It would be more reassuring if the noble Lord could have told the House of any epidemiological studies taking place among those workers who are exposed to these materials.
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I do not claim to match the noble Lord in his use of scientific words. I shall examine quite closely what he has said and write to him about any such studies that have taken place.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in this general field of toxic agents—and the published list contains well over 100 chemicals—there is increasing anxiety at the statements we are getting? I received one fairly recently on dioxine, which is still in use and which we are now told can produce secondary effects if the weeds on which it is used are put on a bonfire. In every case there has been a tendency to conceal from the start; in every case there has been a tendency grossly to understate the risks, and in every case more serious toxic results have followed the use of these new and untested chemicals.
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I know that the whole House is impressed by the way in which my noble friend constantly calls our attention to this problem and by his justified anxiety about the matter. I shall call the attention of the chairman of the Health and Safety Commission to my noble friend's remarks.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTONMy Lords, in view of the fact that the chemical companies themselves are in some doubt as to the effect of this chemical—otherwise they would not be giving particulars or agreeing to make further tests—would it not be in the best interests of all concerned if the chemicals were withdrawn from use until all these matters are resolved without doubt?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, according to present knowledge this substance has a very low toxicity. I am not sure that the action suggested by my noble friend would be justified in this case, but his remarks will certainly have been noted.
§ Lord CROOKMy Lords, would my noble friend give an assurance that we shall hear something about this question at an early and not a late date? We had to wait until there were legal actions on asbestos and on scrotal cancer before anything at all was done by the Government of the day, and we do not want this to happen in respect of people using refrigerators and freezers.
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I will give my noble friend an undertaking to keep him informed of developments. If it is appropriate, we can arrange that the House as a whole should be informed as weil.