§ 2.48 p.m.
§ Lord GLENDEVONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what advice they have received as to the cost to the Land Fund of purchasing Mentmore House with its land and contents; what would be the annual net cost of maintenance if the house were opened to the public, and whether any consultations are being held into the possibility of raising funds from private sources towards this cost.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Birk)My Lords, I hope that the House will bear with me since my Answer is a little longer than is usual; but there are a number of points that are raised by the noble Lord's Question.
My Lords, we are advised that the cost of acquiring Mentmore Towers with its land and many of its contents, if Lord Rosebery's now revised offer is accepted, would approach £3 million. Without detailed proposals we cannot be precise about the net annual maintenance cost, but we estimate on available information that opening it to the public would cost around £80,000 per annum less any income from admission fees, catering and so on.
My right honourable friend has already indicated in another place that he would certainly consider any renewed offer from Lord Rosebery provided a sufficient sum is offered from private sources towards the cost of acquisition and future running 1145 costs. We are also considering whether the period in which Mentmore would qualify for some privileges in its valuation for estate duty purposes can be extended.
§ Lord GLENDEVONMy Lords, I am grateful for that Answer. Would the noble Baroness not agree that this represents a really good investment in what is a highly important export industry on the one hand; and, on the other hand, would she not agree that this is an ideal subject for the use of the land grant which was started with this purpose in mind by, if I remember correctly, a Labour Government shortly after the war? It is made for the purpose, is it not?
§ Baroness BIRKYes, my Lords, as I have said, if we could get the funds from private or industrial sources; but the unfortunate story is that the Government had got the support of a large industrial undertaking which was going to take a large financial slice of this cake and make it a viable proposition for the Government. They pulled out at the last moment, and that is why the matter has fallen through. Of course this is important from a tourist point of view; but we must have the capital to put into it first. We are in a time of economic restraint, with cuts in public expenditure, and there are enormous demands on the same amount of the economic cake. So far as the National Land Fund is concerned, the noble Lord is right. Funds are available to enable purchase of property from estates which might otherwise be sold separately; but the problem is that other great country houses—even more significant than Mentmore—may in the future be offered to the nation in the same way. It is very difficult. This is also a question of priorities as well as finance. The real point is, whether or not it comes out of the National Land Fund, public expenditure is still public expenditure, and that is what the Government are committed to keep down at the present time.
§ Lord GLENDEVONMy Lords, will not the Government in any case get a large slice of death duties on behalf of the taxpayer?
§ Baroness BIRKYes, my Lords, they will. But if Lord Rosebery's package was accepted, it would also lose a considerable amount in death duties. This is a 1146 very difficult situation. As I said before, the door is not closed, and I hope by what has been said in the Press, and also after the Question here today, that anybody who is willing and able will come forward to help what is obviously a very good heritage cause.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, how long is the argument expected to last that the National Fund cannot be used now because someone with a better case in the future may also ask for it? If this case is established now and the Fund is available now, ought not the decision to be made on the merit of the position as it now exists, instead of producing a hypothetical alternative that may or may not arise in the future?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, none of these things is black and white. As is always the case, the tremendous number of letters sent to The Times or the Telegraph are usually on behalf of the people who feel strongly about saving the house. A number of people who are equally expert in this field have expressed to me and others the view that there are other houses which are of more value and which may be at risk in the future. This is not an easy proposition. Also, it is impossible for any Government to sustain this stance unless they have the support of the devoted house owners themselves. It has to be a partnership. The Government cannot do this all on their own. There has to be a sense of social or public responsibility on both sides. It is very difficult. Very near to Mentmore, as no doubt the noble Lord will be aware, is Waddesdon Manor, a property of a later period with an extremely valuable and even more developed collection. I am afraid that the Government have to balance all these matters. They cannot take a strictly emotive, dedicated view in one particular direction. It is difficult, it is unpleasant, but it has to be done.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree that Mentmore House is part of the national heritage which would be enormously appreciated by thousands of members of the public? She quoted Waddesdon Manor which is now visited by about 80,000 people a year—a figure which will increase with the number of overseas visitors. Are we 1147 not concerned in this case about a part of our national heritage which we do not wish to see lost to overseas buyers?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, of course we are. I have accepted all that and said so in reply to other questions. At the present time the Inland Revenue are negotiating regarding certain objects and pictures in lieu of death duties. From her experience and knowledge the noble Baroness is as aware as I am of the situation. The amount of money available for conservation generally and saving valuable things in this country has to be spread not only over great houses, important pieces of furniture and pictures but also rehabilitating old buildings in inner city areas where they form part of a community and local neighbourhood group. This has to be worked out from a comparatively small budget.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that this is all due to the fact that death duties and taxation are far too heavy, otherwise these situations would not occur?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, that is another question; but, in order to help house owners in this way, this Government have done far more by way of exemption of capital transfer tax than any other Government. Many noble Lords opposite, who are owners of stately homes, agree with us.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, since the Government invented capital transfer tax, how can that measure be compared with that of any previous Government?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, it gives many people a far better concession than the old estate duty.
§ Lord PARGITERMy Lords——
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords——
§ Several noble Lords: Order, order!
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, would my noble friend take note of the many questions that have been asked on this subject by noble Lords opposite? This matter does not concern only Mentmore 1148 House; within the pipeline there seems to be a tremendous number of people who will be asking the Government for financial aid. What survey have the Government taken of these ancient houses which they want to keep in perpetuity for the benefit of the nation, and to which visitors, especially those from overseas, can go? Do not the Government think it is time that they undertook a survey so that we know where we stand?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. After the trauma I am going through on Mentmore, I think that is clear. But I do not think we will get any great level of agreement. We could perhaps try to compile a league of the houses; but that is going to cause more confrontations than peace.
§ Lord PARGITERMy Lords, would my noble friend consider the desirability of suggesting to the Conservative Party that they might buy Mentmore House as the headquarters for the Primrose League?
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)My Lords, I think I sense the feeling of the House——
§ Lord GLENDEVONMy Lords——
§ Several noble Lords: Order, order!
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I sense the feeling of the House; we have had a good run on this Question. I do not say that because I am answering the next Question!