LOTTERIES REGULATIONS 1977

HL Deb 01 February 1977 vol 379 cc832-8

8.9 p.m.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL rose to move, That the draft Lotteries Regulations 1977, laid before the House on 18th January, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Lotteries Regulations 1977 be approved, and will speak to the draft Lotteries (Scotland) Regulations 1977. The Lotteries Act 1975 received the Royal Assent on 7th August 1975 and Section 13, which increased the financial limits for small lotteries, and several other sections of the Act were brought into operation on 5th September 1975. The outstanding provisions of the Act cannot, however, be brought into operation until the Secretary of State has made regulations under Section 10 of the Act, and in accordance with Section 18(2) of the Act, such regulations shall not be made unless a draft of them has been approved by Resolution of each House of Parliament.

The present position under the Lotteries Act 1975 is that certain charitable, sporting and other societies may promote lotteries, subject inter alia to the condition that the turnover of each lottery shall not exceed £5,000. When the Act is fully in operation, the limit will be raised to £10,000 for a short-term lottery, £20,000 for a medium-term lottery and £40,000 for any other lottery. Briefly, a short-term lottery may be promoted weekly, a medium-term lottery may be promoted monthly and any other lottery may be promoted quarterly. The full operation of the Act will also permit local authorities for the first time to promote lotteries for any purpose for which they have power to incur expenditure under any enactment, subject to those same limits which I have just mentioned as to the scale and frequency that apply to lotteries promoted by societies.

The Government have given careful consideration to the content of these regulations and, to this end, a Consultative Document was issued last summer, as your Lordships probably know. Subsequently, numerous and detailed comments were received and these were taken into account when the draft regulations which are now before your Lordships' House were prepared. On 4th August in another place, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department said that the regulations would be prepared in a less restrictive manner than was proposed in the Consultative Document. In preparing the draft regulations, the Government have sought to safeguard the public from harassment in connection with the promotion of lotteries, but have wished to avoid needlessly hampering requirements.

If I may, I will briefly explain the provisions of the draft regulations. Draft Regulation 3 and the Schedule propose requirements as to the provisions which must be included in a scheme for the promotion of a lottery. These provisions have been kept as simple as possible and serve, in general, to enable organisations promoting lotteries, and those authorities with need to consider the matter, to see that the proposed lotteries are in accordance with law. Draft Regulations 4 to 8 propose restrictions as to the sale of tickets or chances in a lottery. No lottery ticket shall be sold by or to a person under 16 years of age. This provision maintains the current position under the lottery law. Sales in the street are prohibited, except where the seller is in a kiosk. In this way, the passer-by is freed from pestering by street sellers, but the person wishing on his own account to buy a ticket may do so at the kiosk.

Draft Regulation 6 would prohibit sales in certain premises devoted to gambling for commercial purposes. The Government believe that it is right that those who have chosen to gamble in one way should not, as a result of this choice, be subject to pressure to gamble in other ways. Draft Regulation 7 proposes a prohibition on sales by means of a vending machine, and draft Regulation 8 proposes restrictions on door to door sales by those such as rent collectors, meter readers and anyone calling on business not connected with lotteries. Draft Regulation 9 proposes requirements as to the publication of the name of the authority and the date of the lottery, in the case of a lottery promoted by a local authority. This regulation parallels the requirements in Section 9(1)(b) of the Act which apply in the case of a society lottery.

The draft regulations do not contain certain restrictions on the sale of tickets in public houses and shops, which were proposed in the Consultative Document, as your Lordships may know, and do not set out detailed restrictions on the advertising of lotteries. The Government think that the limits imposed by Section 9(13) of the Act on the amount of the proceeds which can be appropriated on account of expenses, which, as your Lordships will know, must not exceed 25 per cent., are sufficient to control undesirable or wasteful advertising techniques. In general, the draft regulations, while providing adequate safeguards for the public against harassment, do so in a way that leaves adequate scope for the successful promotion of lotteries within the financial limits laid down in the Act, and in a way which gives neither societies nor local authorities any discriminatory advantage in the conduct of lotteries.

Legislation on lotteries naturally tends to raise such questions as: what is the proper scope for gambling, what bodies should promote it, and what contribution might be made from the proceeds of gambling towards the support of other activities? I want to be perfectly frank about this. These broader issues, which are issues of considerable importance, are now being considered by the Royal Commission on Gambling, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Rothschild, and if I may put it in this way—and I hope I do not give offence—they do not really concern us today, as we are considering regulations which can relate only to the area permitted by the Act of 1975.

To return to the draft regulations, I have explained that their approval by both Houses is required before the Lotteries Act 1975 can be brought fully into operation. I hope that your Lordships will feel I have said enough about the draft regulations. They have been prepared after careful deliberation and wide consultation, and the Government commend them to your Lordships for your approval. My Lords, I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft Lotteries Regulations 1977, laid before the House on 18th January, be approved.—(Lord Wells-Pestell.)

8.18 p.m.

Viscount LONG

My Lords, I am most grateful, as are my noble friends, for the information which the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has just given us about these new regulations and the Lotteries Act. I notice that lotteries are nothing new and even in the days of imperial Rome the State wanted money from lotteries in order to build it up. Then, in 1612 lotteries were used to finance the settlement of emigrants to Virginia, and also to construct the ships to take them there.

We on this side firmly agree that there is a great need to issue these draft regulations, so as to make the 1975 Act more clear. Of course we fully understand that in the betting and lotteries world or industry a great deal of clearing up needed to be done. There were too many non-senses. The public were being pestered with the sales of tickets for different types of charity and eventually a Bill had to be introduced. It is not the first time that lotteries have needed a Bill to deal with them. For my part, I do not feel that there is a great deal of criticism to be made. However, Regulation 5 states: Subject to paragraph (2) below, no ticket of chance in a society's lottery or local lottery shall be sold to a person in any street". I wonder whether this is quite right. Should it not say "local authority" as well as "society"? I stand to be corrected by the noble Lord; it may be that I have misread this regulation. However, I should be grateful if the noble Lord would clarify the point. I notice also that the regulation says: to a person in any street". My knowledge of a street, with doors of houses which open on to it, leads me to believe that somebody who may be going about his duty could sell lottery tickets. That person may be the rent officer of a local authority. I think that "street" is too narrow. We read on the second page in paragraph (3): In this Regulation 'street' includes any bridge, road, lane, footway, subway, court, alley or passage, whether a thoroughfare or not, which is for the time being open to the public without payment". The definition is so narrow that in the case of houses with doors which open straight on to the street the rent collector could stand on the street, collect his rent and at the same time offer lottery tickets. Surely he would be selling directly from that street to a person standing at his front door. I wonder whether the noble Lord could clarify the point because it could be a little dangerous.

May I also ask the noble Lord this question. Societies have to register with local authorities, and I gather that a society can be classed as a charity. I am wondering whether there will be unfair discrimination. As a society or charity has to show its books to the local authority, would not this be unfair? The local authority could probably poach on the work of that society or charity. Is it fair that local authorities should have the power to compete with societies? I do not need to say any more. These regulations are essential and we fully understand them, except for the points which I have raised. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to deal with them, but if he cannot answer me now I shall understand. Nevertheless, I should like to know whether there is any substance in what I have said

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

I hope that I have picked up all the points which the noble Viscount has raised. Turning to Regulation 5, which refers to "local lottery", it so happens that I have in front of me the Lotteries Act 1975 as distinct from the regulations, Section 1(4) on page 2 states: In this Act 'local authority' means in England a county council, the Greater London Council, a district council, a London borough council, the Common Council of the City of London, the Council of the Isles of Scilly and a parish council". The subsection then deals with Wales and Scotland. It is clear, therefore, that in the phrase "local lottery", "local" does mean "local authority". The noble Viscount is quite right. It might have been simpler to have put "authority", but it had been defined in the principal Act.

The noble Viscount asked about selling tickets in the street. The regulation refers to a person in the street, not the seller. I do not know whether the noble Viscount wants me to go further. There is nothing to prevent a person from going to a house, providing that the person who is the recipient is standing on his own threshold or in his own passage and not in the street. As the noble Viscount knows, tickets can be sold in the street only from a kiosk. In certain shops there are little side windows from which ice cream or hamburgers are sometimes sold. There would be nothing to prevent a shopkeeper from selling lottery tickets through the window. That would be perfectly all right. The noble Viscount mentioned the rent collector. However, as he will recall, anybody who is calling at a house on business, like a rent collector—and I mentioned other people—is not permitted to sell lottery tickets. I do not imagine for one moment that a doctor who is visiting a patient would be permitted to sell tickets, even though he may want to do so on behalf of some pet charity. My Lords, I think I have dealt with all the points which the noble Viscount has raised and I am grateful to have had the opportunity to clarify the position.

On Question, Motion agreed to.