§ 2.41 p.m.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will reconsider the policy of keeping immigrants in prison for long periods while the Home Secretary decides whether they should be deported.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, every effort is made to keep to the minimum the time spent in prison by persons subject to deportation proceedings. But the reasons for long periods of detention are nearly always outside the control of the Home Office. A person cannot be deported while an appeal is pending. Prolonged representations may have to be considered. And there may be lengthy delays until documentation is provided by the authorities of the country concerned.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, while respecting that Answer, may I ask whether it is not a denial of fundamental human rights that people should be kept in prison without a charge for these long periods? Is the noble Lord aware that a man was kept in prison for 347 days before being deported? Another man was kept in prison for 273 days and, at the end of that time, he was allowed to remain in this country. Surely this procedure can be speeded up.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, everybody agrees that it is a situation that we do not like. But the Home Secretary has to consider what is best for the community. When the Home Secretary initiates deportation proceedings for overstaying and orders detention, the person concerned will almost always have a history of flagrant disregard of immigration control. If such people are to be a liability to the community in the sense that they may go underground and the Home Office may lose sight of them entirely, it is necessary to have them in detention. My noble friend referred to somebody being kept in prison for 347 days. That is perfectly true. The person 1851 concerned renounced his citizenship and the exceptional delay was due to difficulties over the issue of a travel document by his national authorities. It was quite beyond our control and, as I say, was due to the fact that he renounced his citizenship and there were difficulties with his own national authorities. I will not refer to the second case—which again is true—because that was the subject of a Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and my noble friend replied very fully.
§ Baroness SHARPLESMy Lords, is it possible for the noble Lord to tell us how many immigrants are kept in prison each year?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not know that I can give an exact number, but there were about 1,558 held up to 15th November this year in Prison Department establishments.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, is it not possible to improve the conditions under which these people are held in prison for long periods? Is it not the case that, because they are not required to work, they are in effect in solitary confinement, some having only one hour's exercise a day and others two hours a day? Is it not possible to improve their conditions?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the conditions of people in custody are being considered all the time. It is not unlike some of the conditions to which normal prisoners are subjected. We have to face the fact that there are far more people occupying our prisons than the numbers the prisons were originally built to contain.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, there may be cases of long detention, but is it right to assume that the individuals have the right to leave the country without remaining in detention? Secondly, if and when there are cases of deportation, is any attempt made to recover the costs of the hospitality?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the answer to the first question is, yes; and, in respect to the second question, no.
§ Lord SOMERSMy Lords, is it not true that it is an English principle of law that a person is innocent until proved guilty? If that is true, would it be possible for these people not to be imprisoned until they are finally proved to be illegal immigrants?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the two things are not on a par. A person is not detained until such time as the authorities are satisfied that either he or she had no right to be here, had overstayed a work permit or was in some other way in this country without documentation. In the circumstances, it does not seem unreasonable.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, arising from the reply to the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, is it not the case that in a number of these instances the people have offered to return to their own country and pay their own fare, but, nevertheless, they have been kept in prison under these deportation orders?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am not aware of that. It may well be that my knowledge of these matters is not very deep-seated. I will certainly raise this point with my noble friend.
Earl ALEXANDER of TUNISMy Lords, is it possible that the noble Lord could persuade officials in countries like Pakistan and India to make sure that people's papers are in order before they embark on flights to this country?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, this is done so far as possible. We have representatives in every country; and, as noble Lords know, if anybody wants to travel abroad from this country a visa or some kind of authority is required. But it is not possible to force people who want to come here to go through that channel. A good many of them come here illegally.
§ Lord PARGITERMy Lords, in view of the fact that this appears to be a continuing problem, is it not possible to have a detention centre for these people rather than have them detained in prison?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, we have a detention centre at Harmonds- 1853 worth, but it cannot accommodate more than from between 35 and 40 people. We are dealing with a much larger number of people.
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, is it not true that we get very disturbed in this country when we learn of the conditions under which citizens of this country are held in foreign countries? Is it not rather disturbing that we should find the same long detention being adopted in this country?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, my noble friend is talking about conditions. I do not think that the conditions under which people are held in this country compare with some of the conditions we know exist in other countries. With regard to the length of time involved, I tried to point out that this is really beyond the control of the Home Office. As I said, it depends on a number of factors—on documentation, getting information and getting acceptance from other countries. It is sometimes difficult to get the other bodies moving as quickly as we should like.