HOUSING (HOMELESS PERSONS) (APPROPRIATE ARRANGEMENTS) ORDER 1977 (Hansard, 12 December 1977)

§ Lord SANDYS
My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Baroness for explaining in such detail the Housing (Homeless Persons) (Appropriate Arrangements) Order which has been before your Lordships. As the noble Baroness rightly said, it is an enabling procedure which took into account the views of both your Lordships' House and another place and, as the principal Act referred to only reached the Statute Book a short time ago, it will be within your Lordships' recollection what took place as recently as July this year.
There were three principal problems which we attempted to solve in your Lordships' House when the Bill reached us from another place. First, there was the definition of those who were going to be entitled to be rehoused; secondly, and most importantly, deciding which authority had the obligation to rehouse—a matter which this order refers to; and, thirdly, the question whether those who intentionally made themselves homeless would disentitle themselves from being rehoused. This order is an attempt to find means of arbitration between the authorities and as the noble Baroness rightly commented, she felt that it struck an apt balance, with which we agree on this side of the House.
It is noteworthy that the Association of District Councils agrees with this order and, as the noble Baroness said, has taken a prominent part in the discussions. But I think that the local authority association which has had the longest experience of this type of activity is perhaps the London Boroughs Association, the members of which have been working an agreed code of practice among themselves for a number of years. I think that it is true to say that it is thanks to the active and co-operative participation of all the local authorities that this order has been enabled to be brought to your Lordships' House today.
1883 There are a number of matters to which the noble Baroness referred, most especially the appointment of the adjudicator. Almost every permutation has been thought of at this stage, and from this side of the House we believe that the arrangements as set out in this order are acceptable. It may be that there will be some further need for alteration but, as your Lordships will recollect, very wide powers were left to the Minister under Section 2(3) under which the Secretary of State may amend, or repeal, any part of the foregoing subsections. In view of this fact, we may no doubt expect further orders which will be attached to this particular Act of Parliament. Meanwhile, we note that a determination under this order shall be final and binding—two very important words—on both parties, and we welcome it from this side of the House.

Lord HENLEY
My Lords, my noble friends approve of this order. The noble Baroness touched upon one point—the question of delay. I am not sure whether she is satisfied in her own mind that, in the event of delay—and delay in appointing an adjudicator, et cetera, is an example of what I mean—the homeless persons or families will be adequately housed during what might be quite a long interregnum.

Lord JANNER
My Lords, I should like to add a few words to what my noble friend has said. The association of local authorities to which she referred has gone into this matter very carefully, and, as far as I can see—and, as your Lordships will know, I have myself been watching the proceedings and taking some humble part in them in relation to providing accommodation for the homeless—it seems to me that the matter is one of considerable urgency at present, and that some method has to be discovered which will make it possible for the procedure to be carried out in a quick, suitable and satisfactory way. I listened very carefully to what my noble friend said, and it seemed to me that she covered the position most adequately and very well indeed. On behalf of the Association of Metropolitan Authorities, of which I myself happen to be an honorary officer, I should like to say that they are very anxious to do what they 1884 possibly can for the homeless people, and they feel that these provisions should be brought into effect as soon as possible.

§ Baroness FAITHFULL
My Lords, I wonder whether I may ask the Minister two questions. The first concerns the fact that it must be a tremendous responsibility for local housing authorities to house the homeless when they have not the adequate accommodation. Can she say what is going to be done by those local authorities who have not got the accommodation and who are now using bed and breakfast situations, which are very bad for families and also very expensive? Secondly, I wonder whether I could have some clarification on the following point. If a family becomes homeless in one area, then that area is responsible; but suppose that, from the point of view of social conditions, it would be better for that family to be rehoused in another area where there are relatives and friends, particularly in the case of the elderly. Under this order, would it be possible for the two authorities to come to some agreement?

§ Baroness BIRK
My Lords, perhaps I may first thank the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, who spoke for the Opposition, for his support in this matter. I am very grateful, because he appreciates, as I think does everyone who has spoken in this short debate, the great need to get this under way as quickly as possible. I am delighted that the arrangements set out are acceptable to him; and he has pointed to, the fact that, if there is any need for alteration, that is possible. Also, of course, we shall be looking at it again when we look at the arrangements for Scotland, when Scotland comes into this in April of next year.
The noble Lord, Lord Henley, asked me about homeless families being rehoused should there he any delay. They will be in temporary accommodation—I think this was the point also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull—and it may indeed be bed and breakfast accommodation, or whatever accommodation they have. It is for this reason that it is so urgent that we should go ahead with this draft order, so that, where there are disputes between authorities, there is a means of dealing with them.
1885 On the question of which authority should rehouse these people, we are assuming here that it will rest between two authorities—the authority where the people happen to have been living, either temporarily or with relatives, and the authority where they have more places of residence. What we hope is that in the vast majority of cases this will be capable of being sorted out between the authorities without need for the adjudicator and all the other things. As has been pointed out, we have been through almost every permutation and combination to try to ensure that every situation is covered; but, with the goodwill and help of the associations, which in their turn will have an influential effect upon the authorities which are their component parts, we are hoping that few cases will need the use of the services of an adjudicator, and I should like to guess that probably none at all will need the lot. I am grateful to everyone who has taken part in this very short debate for their constructive support and agreement. I believe that we should now approve the order so that it can come into force as soon as possible.