§ 3.20 p.m.
§ Lord CHITNISMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether human rights considerations were taken into account when the decision was made, as reported in The Times newspaper of 17th November, to sell armoured vehicles and other military equipment to the Government of El Salvador.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, all relevant considerations were taken into account when this decision was made.
§ Lord CHITNISMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. If human rights considerations had not been sufficient to cancel this deal, despite the extraordinary brutality of the regime in E1 Salvador, even by worldwide standards, could not Her Majesty's Government take national self interests into account? They have only an assurance, which must be unenforceable, that the Government of El Salvador will not use these vehicles should the occasion require to help Guatemala in any action that they may take against the British garrison in Belize.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord and the House that we have that assurance. I will restate it: that the Salvadorian Government have assured Her Majesty's Government that the vehicles will in no circumstances be used against British troops in Belize. As to the consideration of human rights, I would ask my noble friend—whose concern about these important matters I fully share, and whose activity in this regard I deeply respect—to consider that the Government of E1 Salvador has a really difficult internal situation in which acts of terrorism from both Right and Left extremists are common occurrences. President Romero has not been in office more than about five months; but I think that it is fair to say that already he has given proof of his desire to engage in internal reforms and 1747 to moderate internal tensions. It would be wrong to condemn out of hand the new Government under President Romero. It would be most discouraging if we had not made this comparatively small sale to them of cars and equipment which, after all, are surplus to our own requirements in this country.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord could answer the other question which was asked? What is the value of this assurance if it cannot be policed?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, there is very clear value in the undertaking that none of this equipment will be used against our troops in Belize. If it is, our own troops in Belize will know what to do. I do not think it is necessary to police this, if I understand the noble Lord rightly. We accept the assurances given by the Salvadorian Government. We can only wait and see. I have every confidence that they will stand by their word as given to us.
The LORD BISHOP of SAINT ALBANSMy Lords, is the Minister aware that vehicles of precisely this character have been used by the security forces in the past six months in brutally repressive acts against peasant communities, as witnessed and reported by churchmen? Can any guarantees be secured that these vehicles will not be so used?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can only repeat the terms of the assurance given to my honourable friend the Minister who deals with these matters, with which I am fully conversant myself, and say that I am confident that that guarantee will be implemented. The right reverend Prelate raised an important matter relating to the position of the Church. In this case, it is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church—but, nevertheless, it is the Church. We believe that under President Romero's Administration there has been an improvement in relations between the Church and the Government. It is undoubtedly true that members of the Salvadorian security and other armed forces have acted with very great severity. I believe there are commissions now for the ventilation of the Church's grievances with the Government. This is an Administration, 1748 which is some five months old, operating in conditions of very grave difficulty and internal danger. On the whole, it would be best for us to continue our encouragement to the Romero Administration. So far they have given a number of indications that they are embarked on a somewhat different policy from that of their predecessors.
§ Viscount MONTGOMERY of ALAMEINMy Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for his reply to the original Question, may I ask him whether or not he would agree that if negotiations were reopened at this stage, it would place doubts on the credibility of the United Kingdom as a supplier of capital goods?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that would be so. It is fair however to the noble Lord, Lord Byers, to say that we have had very much in mind the size and nature of this contract relative to the considerations which he and the noble Lord, Lord Chitnis, advanced. It was only after very careful consideration, as I said in my original Answer, that we decided to go ahead. We are of course doing other things to help the forces of moderation and of constructive reform in El Salvador. I will not delay the House unduly, but noble Lords will wish to know that we provide a very effective technical assistance programme. I see that the noble Viscount knows about this. This is not only helpful to the sons and daughters of the less well-off in E1 Salvador, especially in the agricultural and related technical fields; it is also an encouragement to the present Government in E1 Salvador to follow constructive programmes of reform linked to procedures aimed at moderating tensions internally.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, as the right reverend Prelate has put a question on behalf of the peasants, may I put a question on behalf of the Church? Is it not the case that the Church in E1 Salvador has been brutally suppressed? Many of its priests and deacons have been killed. In confirmation of that, is the Minister aware that our Foreign Secretary, Dr. Owen, wrote in a letter to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, (whose absence abroad I regret) that the Government of El Salvador's attempts to,
cow the Church into submission justifiably attracted condemnation in Britain and elsewhere"?1749 While one welcomes the return of President Romero, would it not be better to wait on the results of his Administration, as President Carter has done, rather than make this presentation now?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSI do not think so, my Lords. I think good intentions, especially as backed up by initial evidence of good performance, need to be encouraged. This is the position in E1 Salvador. To my noble friend's support of the Church, I say that of course the Church is accustomed to using good men for its purpose.