HL Deb 07 December 1977 vol 387 cc1614-6

2.50 p.m.

The Earl of LAUDERDALE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Energy Commission will be given detailed information by the National Coal Board about the location, depth and thickness of undeveloped coal seams discovered in the United Kingdom and estimated to total 190 billion tons with a recovery potential of no more than 45 billion tons.

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, if the Energy Commission needs this information, I am sure that the National Coal Board will do its utmost to assist. I think the noble Earl should be aware, however, that until the reserves are fully explored, it would not in any case be possible to give all the detailed information he suggests.

The EARL of LAUDERDALE

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, helpful as was the last one, may I ask him whether or not he considers that the enormous differential between an estimated 190 billion tons of reserves and a mere 45 billion recoverable ought to be open to public discussion, debate and examination in the freest possible way by all the experts, private and public, that exist? Can he also say whether it would not be advantageous to that end if the National Coal Board were to make that information widely available so that useful debate can take place?

Lord STRABOLGI

Yes, my Lords, I will pass that on to the National Coal Board. The reason why the recoverable reserves are less than the total coal in place is because some coal is inevitably left behind because of the need to leave shaft pillars in areas of disturbed ground and, under mechanised mining, there is a degree of selectivity required. Also, a proportion of the coal in place will be in seams of unacceptable quality. I should like to put the position into perspective by saying that the 45 billion tons represents 300 years of coal at our present requirements.

The EARL of LAUDERDALE

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the difficulties that he has referred to might, in the opinion of some, be overcome by underground gasification?

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, yes. Of course, we might be able to get up more of the coal. The 190 billion tons figure is based on going down 4,000 feet. In America, they go down only 1,000 feet. If you go further—and I am sure we shall be able to do so with technological improvements in the next century—there will be far more still. But there is a thousand years at the moment.

Lord BLYTON

My Lords, will my noble friend agree that these figures would be higher if we had not closed down collieries in the last 15 years and reduced our manpower by nearly 300,000? Is he aware that that coal still lies there?

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, on the other hand some of the collieries which were closed were uneconomic while, with the new mines, there will be considerably higher productivity.

Lord AVEBURY

My Lords, is it not misleading for the authorities to say that these recoverable reserves represent 300 years at current consumption, bearing in mind that after the turn of the century the coal reserves will have to take over from the declining oil and natural gas reserves? Does the noble Lord care to recalculate the number of years' supply that will exist at present levels of consumption, taking into account the exhaustion of our natural gas and oil supplies by about the year 2025?

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, I think that would be a very hypothetical calculation to make; but I think I can say that the operating reserves, which represent that proportion of the recoverable reserves which have been fully proved as regards quality, are 6 billion tons, which represents 50 years' consumption. But as we go on, the recoverable reserves will be upgraded to operating and the reserves will be upgraded to recoverable. It is a continuing process.

Lord WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, can my noble friend tell the House whether there are extensive reserves offshore and to what extent these occur in the North Sea? If they do so, can he tell us the location, the depth and also the size of seam in what could be these underground workings under the North Sea?

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, it is difficult to give a precise figure for coal under the North Sea since coal measures are known to exist up to 100 miles from the shore and down to a depth of 14,000 feet. However, it must be remembered that the reserves figures that I quoted are calculated only on a depth of 4,000 feet.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, while future availability of coal is an intensely interesting subject, as is gasification and the use of coal in general, a much more interesting question is this: Why is it that the National Coal Board is unable to reach its targets? Is he aware that the production of coal is dwindling very rapidly?

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, we are aiming for a target of 170 million tons a year by the year 2,000.

The Earl of LAUDERDALE

My Lords, will the noble Lord—

The Lord PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)

My Lords, I think we have had a long run on this Question.