§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how much was contributed to UNSECO in 1974/75 and 1975/76, and whether they approve of the purpose for which UNESCO funds are used.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, our contribution to the regular budget of UNESCO amounted to£1.9 million in 1974/75 and£2 million in 1975/76.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, is it right that the United Nations' Organisation, which was founded to promote peace and to which we subscribe substantial funds, should use those funds to promote guerrilla activities and warfare throughout Southern Africa?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, there is absolutely no evidence that that is what the funds are used for.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness is aware of the report that was given by UNESCO officials to the Sub-Commission on Discrimination of Minorities this year, in which it was stated that several hundreds of thousands of dollars are given in support of national liberation movements which are recognised by the Organisation of African Unity and that such support comes out of UNESCO funds? Are the Government aware of that? May I also ask whether, if they are aware of it, they 262 approve and, if not, would they kindly instruct their representative at the present conference in Nairobi not to support these movements?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government are, of course, aware of it. Certainly UNESCO provides assistance to liberation movements which are recognised by the OAU and which come within the sphere of humanitarian assistance for refugees.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, might I ask the noble Baroness what efforts are being made by United Kingdom delegates to prevent abuse of UNESCO funds for political motives by certain States, since this consequently causes grave damage to its proper educational, scientific and cultural activities? May I also ask my noble friend what steps are being taken to ensure that all member States are able to participate fully in the proper work and activities of UNESCO?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government deplore attempts by member States to raise issues which are more properly debated in the General Assembly and the Security Council. I can assure my noble friend that Her Majesty's Government believe that all member States should have the right of full and proper participation in UNESCO.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, does the noble Baroness therefore approve of the appointment of a special representative of UNESCO at Dar-es-Salaam, precisely in order to co-ordinate the activities between the national liberation movements, including SWAPO, ANC and ZANU?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, certainly, if they are for educational and humanitarian purposes.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, does that mean that the money which is given to promote cultural and educational activities can be used to spend on arms and on fighting?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, that is an extremely 263 tautological argument, if I may say so. We have absolutely no reason to believe that the administrations of UNESCO or of UNRWA do anything but what is completely proper.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, in view of the question put to my noble friend by the noble Lord, is she aware that it would be most interesting to get to know, since this Organisation was set up in the 1930s, the amount of money that was spent by the previous Government over the 13 years when they had control? Would it not be interesting to know what really happened during that particular period?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I have every reason to suppose that the same proportions of money was spent by both Administrations, but I am afraid that I shall have to check on that and let my noble friend know.
§ Baroness ELLIOT of HARWOODMy Lords, do the Government approve of the way in which the funds of UNESCO have been used in connection with the representative of Israel where, on one occasion, UNESCO very much discriminated against him? Do the Government not think that that sort of behaviour is unworthy of their support?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I am sorry; I did not catch the beginning of the question put by the noble Baroness.
§ Baroness ELLIOT of HARWOODMy Lords, my question was whether the Government know of the very discriminatory way in which UNESCO behaved over Israel. Do they believe that this is the way in which UNESCO should behave, and do they believe that we should be supporting UNESCO when they carry out that kind of discrimination?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, we have spoken and voted against the resolutions which tried to discriminate against Israel and we shall continue to do so; but we think it better to remain within UNESCO, where we can have some influence.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she has read the statement in the Press relating to educational departments and institutions in the USSR and Arab countries being used for the purpose of training assassins, hijackers and so on, and whether she is aware that UNESCO is being used for that purpose? If not, what will UNESCO do in order to prevent that kind of use being made of so-called educational establishments?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, as I have said, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that UNESCO funds are being used anywhere for training terrorists.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that I have in my hands a UNESCO document which says that a meeting will be held in Mozambique on social structure, revolutionary change and culture in Southern Africa, and that this will bring together members of liberation movements and sociologists who have done work on colonial societies? Is the noble Baroness aware that many other factors mentioned in this paper suggest that money and considerable support is being given to guerrilla movements throughout Southern Africa? As there is some concern in different parts of the House on several issues, may we have an assurance that Her Majesty's Government's diplomatic representatives in these countries will keep a close watch so that these funds are not misused in the manner in which some of us believe them to be?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government, along with most Western nations, have recognised the Government of Mozambique and they cannot be considered a liberation movement. We are all delighted that they should meet with sociologists and specialists of every kind. As to change in Southern Africa, it is long overdue.
§ Several noble Lords: Order!
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)My Lords, I think we should now proceed.