§ 11.10 a.m.
§ Lord MERRIVALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the present position regarding the renegotiation of the Bermuda Agreement, particularly in respect of the British Caledonian Houston and Atlanta routes.
Lord ORAMMy Lords, the first round of negotiations with the United States for a new air services agreement was held in London on 9th and 10th September. A programme of further meetings was agreed, designed to lead up to a new agreement before our notice of termination of the Bermuda Agreement comes into effect on 22nd June 1977. A second round of talks is being held in Washington this week. Discussions have not yet reached the stage at which individual routes are being discussed in detail.
§ Lord MERRIVALEMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oram, for that reply; but as it is now nearly three months since the noble Lord said in effect that we fully intend to negotiate on behalf of British Caledonian in respect of the Houston and Atlanta routes, could be not impose a certain sense of urgency in the negotiation for these routes? Would he not agree that in about the spring of 1977 British Caledonian is introducing into service two DC10s and it would like to introduce them on these Atlanta and Houston routes?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I assure the noble Lord that there is a sense of urgency about the talks and there is a programme of future rounds of negotiation scheduled. Certainly, one of our objectives is to secure a route to Atlanta and Houston for British Caledonian on a basis that will enable it to operate profitably.
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell us who are taking part in these negotiations? Is the Civil Aviation Authority part of the negotiating team?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, representatives of British Airways and British Caledonian have been present throughout the talks in September, and they also attend all briefing meetings. I am not sure about the Civil Aviation Authority, but I will find out about that.
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. Is he aware of the importance that attaches to this in view of the highly complicated nature of these negotiations in relation to the Civil Aviation Authority's policy guidance paper, which was debated in this House not so long ago, and which affects a number of other issues, notably Laker Airlines, among others?
Lord ORAMYes, my Lords; the negotiations are taking place with the policy statement in mind. We feel that a renegotiation of the Bermuda Agreement is necessary in the interests of British airlines generally.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that at present many Britishers going to Houston have first 1661 to fly to Paris and then take Air France from Paris to Houston, direct flight? Is he aware that we are losing a great deal of trade because we are not able to offer any British service from this country direct to Houston? Therefore, is he aware that the sooner these facilities are available the better for all those people who have to travel to Houston and who are involved in the development of North Sea oil?
Lord ORAMYes, my Lords; we are aware of those considerations, which is why we have British Caledonian's wish for those routes very much in mind.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, is it intended that the new Bermuda Agreement should make provision for charter flights? If not, why have the Government abrogated the memorandum of understanding which was in force to cover these flights?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, the existing Bermuda Agreement, of course, covers only scheduled flights. I believe it is open for the negotiations to include charter flights as well, but I will check on that point in case I have misinformed your Lordships. At the moment, charter flights arc covered by a temporary agreement which expires at the end of this year.
§ Lord ROBBINSMy Lords, is the noble Lord in a position to deny the extremely disturbing rumour that the question of permission for the Concorde to land in other parts of the United States of America has been introduced into these entirely distinct negotiations?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, the present agreement confers rights on both sides to operate scheduled services without restrictions as to the type of aircraft to be used, and Her Majesty's Government certainly aim to safeguard Concorde operations to the United States.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, in view of the fact that the new Bermuda Agreement cannot possibly come into force by the end of this year, what do the Government propose to do in respect of charter flights, bearing in mind that the temporary agreement which he mentioned is to expire at that time?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I am not fully apprised of that situation, but I imagine we shall be making an effort to reach a new agreement covering charter flights.
§ Lord MERRIVALEMy Lords, if I understood the noble Lord aright in his original Answer, I think he said that the question of routes had not come into these negotiations. Can he give any idea as to the timetable and as to when there will be discussion on routes, particularly, of course, the Atlanta and Houston routes?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, what I said in my original Answer was that discussions had not yet reached a stage at which individual routes are being discussed in detail. In the earlier talks there has been discussion about routes in general and about a timetable for further rounds of talks, and I imagine that the discussions will soon get on to the individual routes in question.
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, in view of the wide-ranging questions which arise on this issue, would the noble Lord consider the possibility of asking the Leader of the House to arrange for a debate about this issue when we perhaps have a little more time in the new Session?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, my noble friend has heard that suggestion and will no doubt take it into account.