HL Deb 14 October 1976 vol 375 cc457-9

3.20 p.m.

Baroness VICKERS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what action will be taken to see that, when a woman is the main breadwinner, she will be able to claim family income supplement, non-contributory invalidity pensions and invalid care allowance benefits and any extra allowances that would be granted to the male breadwinner in similar circumstances.

Lord WELL-PESTELL

My Lords, I am not sure what the noble Baroness has in mind, and I assume that her Question relates to families where both busband and wife are out at work. If I am right in that assumption, may I say that noncontributory invalidity pension will be extended in November 1977 to married women who are incapable of paid work and of performing normal household duties. The Government have no other plans to take the kind of action which the noble Baroness envisages in her Question.

Baroness VICKERS

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. I used the words "main breadwinner" in my Question, and perhaps I should have said "only breadwinner", because the noble Lord may know that more and more women are now going out and earning money to keep their entire family. Therefore, it is only natural justice that they should have the same facilities as men for obtaining the other payments named in my Question.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, this presents a problem, and I have some sympathy with what is in the mind of the noble Baroness. But if we take the Supplementary Benefits Commission alone, I believe that last year they had something like 5 million new applications. Over and above that, 3 million had to be constantly reassessed for various situations, and we need a firm and rigid system. Otherwise, there is difficulty, as on some occasions the wife could apply because she happened to be the main breadwinner, and on other occasions, in a comparatively short space of time, the husband could become the main breadwinner and himself apply. As I understand the situation, the law relating, for example, to benefits—particularly supplementary benefits and family income supplements—clearly lays down that the man must make the application. I say "man", because we regard a man and a woman living together as husband and wife, whether married or not married, as a unit.

Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGER

My Lords, is not that the very point that the noble Baroness is raising? Why should an application for family income supplement have to come from the man, if the woman is the main earner? Will my noble friend consider having this ridiculous regulation changed?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, as I said a moment or two ago, there are certain difficulties in the sense that the situation could change, and from an administrative point of view it is easier if there is just the one person. But we recognise that there are anomolies and difficulties, and your Lordships may remember that on 15th September last my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services said that there would be a review. One of the issues to be covered in this review is whether it will be possible to operate a scheme whereby either husband or wife could claim benefit and either could have the conditions attaching to benefit applied on a similar basis.

Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGER

My Lords, does my noble friend not realise that, if a situation can change one way round, it can change the other way round, from the man to the woman and from the woman to the man?

Baroness FAITHFULLM

My Lords, following the noble Baroness's point, may I ask the Minister what is the position of a widow when there is an elder son in the house who is working, but who is herself the main breadwinner?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, if there is a shortage of money in the family, the widow is entitled to what everybody else is entitled to if he or she is in need; that is, she is able to make an application to the Supplementary Benefits Commission to see whether she is entitled to supplementary benefit, in which case, as the noble Baroness knows very well indeed, the income of the family will be taken into account.