HL Deb 12 October 1976 vol 375 cc200-3

2.35 p.m.

The Earl of KIMBERLEY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is true, as reported in the Daily Telegraph of 24th August, that they have cancelled their order for MADGE (Microwave Aircraft Digitial Guidance Equipment).

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

No, my Lords. Her Majesty's Government have never placed a production order for MADGE. Government expenditure on its development was curtailed—but not cancelled—in May 1975 as a necessary measure in the context of the Defence Review. However, we have continued to fund limited further development of this very good landing aid.

The Earl of KIMBERLEY

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Does he not agree that this is probably yet another example of what has happened many times in this country? We invent something. We produce it. It is the best in the world, and because we do not push it and use it ourselves we cannot even export it to NATO or to any other country.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the project is being kept alive to the point, believe—subject to correction—of a pre-production model; so that if it were required overseas the actual device would be available for sale.

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, is it not a fact that this device MADGE won the competition among the NATO countries for the best landing device? That being so, is it not odd that NATO countries have not adopted it? What are Her Majesty's Government doing to ensure that they do?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the actual winning of the competition was in 1971 and, subsequently, other countries—for instance, France and Germany—preferred to continue with their own national developments. But we are making good progress in achieving harmonisation and we still retain the options for MADGE to be sold internationally.

The Earl of KIMBERLEY

My Lords, is it still not true, though, that the RAF particularly would like to have this landing aid for their advanced helicopters and their Harriers, because this landing aid can even he dropped on a parachute?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, if the noble Earl is basing his question on, I think, the Daily Telegraph article, I should say that the RAF, although obviously interested, does not place a particularly high priority on this device.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, the noble Lord says that they are making progress with harmonisation; can he say harmonisation with whom?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

Throughout NATO, my Lords.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, is it not the case that this equipment provides the facility for curved approaches, which is of considerable value in noise abatement procedures, and, therefore, it has a very real possibility in the world of civil aviation? Can the noble Lord say what work is being done to develop this aid for use at civil airports?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

That is another Question, my Lords.

Lord CARRINGTON

But, my Lords, does not the Minister agree that the fact that the Germans and the French went on developing their own equipment is an indication that no country in Europe is taking standardisation seriously?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, this is entirely untrue. Let us take simply Tornado. This is an aircraft which has been developed by three of the major NATO partners. Since we live in an imperfect world, we cannot agree at this moment to standardise everything on British equipment in 1971.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, can my noble friend say how much money has been saved by curtailing this equipment?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, it is not a question of saving. How shall I express this to my noble friend so that he will understand it? If one is spending very little money indeed, and that little amount is cut to slightly less, the saving is not really relevant to the total Defence expenditure.

Lord SHINWELL

Well, my Lords, if I may put it another way, how much money has been unspent?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have spent, believe, £3 million in addition to what the company responsible has spent itself; what that amount was I cannot tell your Lordships.