HL Deb 04 October 1976 vol 374 cc815-7

2.40 p.m.

Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government to state how many people are currently employed in local government compared with the numbers in March 1974.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, at March 1976, the latest date for which published information is available, local authorities in England and Wales employed 2.58 million, including the police. This compares with 2.44 million at June 1974. Employment figures are not available for March 1974.

Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNE

My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether, in view of the Government's decision to cut back by 140,000 those in the Civil Service, the Minister could clarify two figures? First, Sir Douglas Allen estimated that this would mean 35,000 jobs cut back, whereas Mr. Charles Morris stated on 29th July that there would be a reduction of 26,000 jobs plus the addition, by April 1979, of 20,000 jobs as a result of defence cuts. Could we know which is the correct figure?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I regret to say that I am not in a position to give the noble Lord the correct figure so far as local government is concerned. What I can say is that each local authority is of itself responsible for deciding how many employees it needs in order to meet its statutory duties and responsibilities. But in a special circular we have asked all local authorities to look at the position very carefully and to take measures such as the postponement of recruitment and encouraging early voluntary retirement. The fact that the figures have dropped is an indication that over the past 18 months local authorities have been exerting some restraints.

Lord MURRAY of GRAVESEND

My Lords, could my noble friend say how much of this increase has been due to the disastrous reorganisation of local government that took place under the previous Government?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I would guess that some of the increase is due to that, but I could not say how much.

Lord STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, is the noble Baroness not able to give figures for Scotland? So far as I know, we are still part of the United Kingdom.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, there is a Joint Manpower Watch for England and Wales; the Joint Manpower Watch in respect of Scotland has only just been introduced. Their first quarterly return, which will show the number employed by local authorities in Scotland, was not published until the end of September, two or three days ago. Therefore we are not able to give any figures for Scotland at this time.

Lord ORR-EWING

My Lords, could the noble Baroness explain why she said that the figures have dropped? If my arithmetic is right, it is 140,000 extra people at an extra cost of probably £280 million. Has she some evidence not given in her original reply which shows that the figures are dropping? Everything she said to the House indicated that they were going up.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I am sorry if I misled the noble Lord. Local government manpower has been increasing over the years at a rate of 4 per cent. up to 1975. In the year 1975–76 that increase has dropped, according to the Joint Manpower Watch, to 1.6 per cent., which shows local authorities are exercising restraint in recruitment. We expect that trend to continue.

Lord ORR-EWING

My Lords, the noble Baroness is always wonderfully persuasive and polite in reply to questions. But is it any good pretending that an increase is really a drop? Is not this the way that we get double accounting? Cuts in public expenditure are cuts on some figure which was in the original plan, but in fact they mean steady increases on the rates everyone has to pay in this country.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, it is a matter of interpretation. The rate was increasing at 4 per cent. a year, and is now increasing at the rate of 1.6 per cent. I should have thought that that showed a drop in the increase and, we hope, eventually a drop in the numbers of people employed.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, surely that means an all-time high over an all-time high over an all-time high!