§ 2.41 p.m.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider the appointment of a committee of inquiry or a Royal Commission to inquire into improving the status of the police force including pay and conditions of service.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, my right honourable friend does not consider that a committee of inquiry or a Royal Commission would serve a useful purpose at the present time; but he has accepted that there should be a review of the police negotiating machinery.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that, as we rely on the police force to maintain law and order, the public must have the utmost confidence in their importance and integrity? Is it not therefore important that their status should be improved, in addition to their pay and emoluments?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, there was a Royal Commission on this and other matters which reported in 1962—some years ago, I accept—and many of its recommendations were implemented. But my right honourable friend has given very careful consideration to this matter. He has met the Police Federation on three occasions—the former Home Secretary on 29th July; the present Home Secretary on 8th October and 13th November—and has come to the conclusion that the situation would be met if there were a review on the police negotiating machinery.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, will my noble friend inform your Lordships' House who is to conduct this review? Is it to be a review conducted by some bureaucrats, or by some independent body which can take an objective view of the whole situation? Furthermore, when is the review to take place and when will its findings be published?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, bearing in mind that the last discussion which my right honourable friend had with the Police Federation was on 13th November, when he came to a conclusion about the need for a review, it is not possible at this stage to say who will comprise the review body. But it will not be a bureacratic body; it will be a body of people nominated by the Home Secretary, who will consider every aspect and receive oral and written evidence from the various bodies concerned.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, does the noble Lord realise that virtually the whole country, except Government circles and, 127 probably, certain criminal circles, think that the police ought at this present moment to be treated as a special case?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, a number of people may well think that; but last year the police received an increase of 30 per cent. when everybody else had £6 a week, so that less than a year ago they were, perhaps, considered a special case. But in the present situation, and in the current pay pause, there cannot be any special case whatsoever.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, I am merely saying what most people in the country think ought to happen.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the Report of the Commission of 1960 to 1962, of which I was a member, is now entirely out of date? There has been no real consideration of the conditions under which the police now operate of increased danger, increased risk and increased violence in the country; and it is necessary that the police should be able to maintain the high standard which, with a few unhappy exceptions, they have maintained. Also, can the noble Lord say whether recruitment is still satisfactory, and how many forces are below their recognised authorised standard?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, we are aware of the view of the Police Federation, but it is primarily a financial matter. As I said, a very serious attempt was made last year to deal with that; but this year they are asking for the £6 a week which applied to all persons last year, and are not willing to accept the present pay pause which gives a maximum of £4 and a minimum of £2.50 per week. In reply to my noble friend's second question, recruitment continues well. In the first 10 months of this year, 7,982 men and women joined the Police Service, as against 8,239 last year. The figures for wastage this year are a little higher than last year, but that is almost wholly due to increased retirement on pension. Over the country as a whole, we are approximately 9,000 policemen short.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, would the Minister like to tell the House what this enormous increase last 128 year made the average wage of a constable in this country? What is the average wage today?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I cannot do so. That question, and several earlier ones, are far outside the original Question which I was asked to answer. I do not want to incur the further displeasure of my noble friend, who complained some months ago about the length of my replies.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, in supporting my noble friend Lord Shinwell, may I ask the noble Lord if he has yet had a reply from the Police Federation about whether they are satisfied with the action taken by the Government?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, if the noble Baroness's question applies to the Government's action in refusing them £6 a week, as against the present figure of £4 a week, the answer is that they are not satisfied.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDENo, my Lords. What I am asking is how the Police Federation react to the decision which has just been taken?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I have no evidence at all that they are dissatisfied with my right honourable friend's decision to have a review body.
§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGERMy Lords, would my noble friend care to correct his previous answer, when he said that the £6 applies to all persons? It does not apply to all persons. It does not apply to persons who get their incomes from investments, and it applies only to persons in employment.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, that is perfectly true. It applies to all persons who are earning less than £8,500 a year.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that I am concerned not so much about pay and emoluments—although they are important—as about status and making this, in reality, an honourable profession?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I cannot go beyond the answers that I have already given to your Lordships.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDFinally, my Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that our police are wonderful? Is he also aware of the fact that if a special case is made of the police, it will be followed by applications by the firemen and then by the ambulance men to be made a special case, and then the whole of the Social Contract will be torpedoed?