LORDS AMENDMENT (Hansard, 18 November 1976)

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGE
My Lords, I beg to move that the House doth not insist upon their Amendment No. 5 to which the Commons have disagreed for the Reason numbered 8. It may be to the convenience of the House if we are able at the same time to discuss Lords Amendment No. 11 to which the Commons have disagreed for the Reason numbered 12. The other place debated these Amendments last week, having previously considered the general question of exceptions to the comprehensive principle for no less than six and a half hours in Committee. They have not agreed to the Amendments because they consider that their acceptance would lead to an unacceptable breach of the comprehensive principle. As the Parliamentary Under-Secretary said at column 317: If the Amendment were to be retained in its present form a future Secretary of State could, in effect, repeal the Bill without the unpleasant necessity of arguing in any detail for its repeal before Parliament or the country. I hope noble Lords will accept the verdict of another place and not press these two Amendments.

§ Lord BEAUMONT of WHITLEY
My Lords, of course the Reason numbered 8 has absolutely nothing to do with Amendment No. 5. It is a reason, possibly a good one, for rejecting Amendments Nos. 6 and 7. But what the Commons say is that the Amendments extend the exceptions to the comprehensive principle beyond what the Commons consider justifiable. Of course this Amendment does nothing of the sort; it merely allows the Secretary of State in future to bring proposals for that to come before 1539 Parliament. I think that we were entitled to a better Reason than that for the rejection of this particular Amendment.
When we put forward this Amendment in the first place it was in a completely and absolutely genuine desire to be helpful. We still think that the Government would save themselves a great deal of trouble in the future if they accepted this ability to widen the exceptions when and where it should become necessary. I do not accept the argument given by the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, that somehow a future Secretary of State could completely de-comprehensivise the school system without anyone noticing. It is not at all likely to happen.
However, since the Government do not see that it would help them particularly to have that ability when, as I am sure will happen, future research and study over the whole educational field isolates and points out certain possibilities where it may be a good thing to have more exceptions to the Bill than what has sometimes been described as the rather frivolous ones of music and dancing (and exceptions have already been granted), far be it for me to force such exceptions on them. I am merely trying to be helpful.

§ Lord SOMERS
My Lords, I think this Amendment is an addition to the exceptions already made in the Bill for music and dancing. Naturally, I am only too pleased about the exception so far as music is concerned, and I presume dancing means ballet dancing, but I am not certain. Of course both of those are very specialised subjects, but they are not the only ones. What about maths? What about science? What about history, which really needs a teacher of genius if he is going to make it interesting? All these subjects are specialised subjects, and it is a great pity if the average child, or one which has a particular talent or interest in that direction, will not be able to get the teaching he deserves.

§ Lord BOWDEN
My Lords, we have spoken on this question of precocity of mathematicians before. It is as notorious as the precocity of chess players, the precocity of dancers, and the precocity of musicians. Gauss is just as precocious and Mozart, if one can take a particular case. I think it is hardly worth objecting 1540 to this, because I believe that sooner or later selection will come back because it will be demanded in the interests of national efficiency, and if it does not after all what a wonderful play some future Gibbon might make in writing of the decline of Great Britain, to say that the only subjects they took seriously in their schools were music and dancing.