HL Deb 16 November 1976 vol 377 cc1205-9

47 Clause 30, page 42, line 12, after "if" insert— (a) it is a transaction the effect of which is to transfer or grant to any person any property or rights belonging to the company in connection with the business of repairing, refitting or maintaining ships carried on by it other than at a shipyard or other works in which the company had an interest in possession on the initial date, or (b)

6.42 p.m.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY

My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth not insist on Amendment No. 47 but doth propose the following Amendment, No. 47A in lieu thereof:

47A page 42, line 12, after ("if") insert— ("(a) it is a transaction the effect of which is to transfer or grant to any person any property or rights belonging to the company effecting the transfer, being property or rights used by the company in connection with the business of repairing, refitting or maintaining ships carried on by it at a place which is not a shipyard or other works in which the company had an interest in the possession on the initial date, or (b)")

It would save time if we could also discuss Amendment No. 48 and its alternative, No. 48A, Amendment No. 54A and its alternative, No. 54B, and Amendment No. 71 and the alternative, No. 72A. The group has the same purpose. We have discussed ship repairing in general on Amendment No. 19 but this group of Amendments relates to one company, Vosper Thornycroft, and is consequential to our intention that ship repairing should be removed from the Bill.

Just now we found a misprint. The Government's alternative Amendments contain the word "repair" instead of "repaid". While we were busy trying to take the word "repair" out of the Bill, it looked as if they were trying to bring it in again. I immediately acquit the Government of any attempt of backdoor nationalisation! These Amendments would allow Vosper Thornycroft's ship repairing business to be removed from the scope of the Bill. It is a separate business; I have described it at an earlier stage of the Bill. It is one of the largest ship repairing businesses in the country. It happens by an accident of organisation to be a separate department within one company instead of being a separate company or a subsidiary.

It would be wrong to leave that ship repairing business in the Bill while the ship repairing industry was being taken out of the Bill. The effect of the Amendments is to enable Vosper Thornycroft to exclude its ship repairing department. The new Amendments (which appear in the bolder type) have been provided as various improvements to the ones that have been sent back from another place, taking into account the comments which have been made by the Government. They should therefore be easier for the Government to accept. I commend to your Lordships' House the new alternatives. If your Lordships agree to these, it is still open for the Government to suggest any further improvement in another place. I beg to move.

Moved, That the House doth not insist on their Amendment No. 47 but doth propose Amendment No. 47A in lieu thereof.— (Lord Campbell of Croy.)

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, I confess that I became lost when the noble Lord read out the list of Amendments to which he intended to speak with this Amendment. I believe I am right in thinking he is solely dealing with the Vosper Thornycroft point and not going any wider than that. As the noble Lord knows, the group of Amendments to which he has spoken, as they were originally proposed by your Lordships, would have allowed any shipbuilding company named in Schedule 2 to hive off its ship repairing operations without consent from the Secretary of State. I understand that this was meant to apply only to Vosper Thornycroft which has a separate ship repairing division. As the noble Lord now understands, there are several other shipbuilding companies carrying out ship repair operations within the same company. The Government believe that it would be wrong to have such a provision which would allow the breaking up of existing company structures in which ship repairing is closely integrated with shipbuilding. Of course those arguments apply just as strongly to the particular case of Vosper Thornycroft as they do to the general case, and it was on the general case that we argued the point when the matter was last before your Lordships. I do not think there is anything further that I can constructively add to the debate

which we previously had on the subject of ship repairing.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, has again expressed the Government's anxiety that other shipbuilding companies in Schedule 2 will avail themselves of these provisions and hive off their ship repairing sections. My information is that that is not so. Of the shipbuilding companies named in the Schedule, I under stand that Swan Hunter Shipbuilding Limited is the only company with a sizeable ship repairing activity. I also understand that it is not their intention to avail themselves of a provision of this kind if it is included in the Bill. My understanding is that Vosper Thornycroft are the only company which will make use of these provisions if they eventually find their way, as I hope they will, into the Bill.

6.48 p.m.

On Question, That this House doth not insist on their Amendment No. 47 but doth propose Amendment No. 47A in lieu thereof?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 173; Not-Contents, 65.

CONTENTS
Airedale, L. Cottesloe, L. Gisborough, L.
Amory, V. Craigavon, V. Glendevon, L.
Ampthill, L. Craigton, L. Goodman, L.
Amulree, L. Crawshaw, L. Goschen, V.
Arran, E. Cromartie, E. Gough, V.
Auckland, L. Cullen of Ashbourne, L. Gray, L.
Balerno, L. Dacre, B. Greenway, L.
Balfour of Inchrye, L. Daventry, V. Grey, E.
Barrington, V. de Clifford, L. Gridley, L.
Bathurst, E. De Freyne, L. Hacking, L.
Belstead, L. De La Warr, E. Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L
Berkeley, B. Denham, L. [Teller.] Halsbury, E
Blakenham, V. Deramore, L. Hampden, V.
Bourne, L. Derwent, L. Hanworth, V.
Boyd of Merton, V. Digby, L. Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L. Dormer, L. Harvey of Tasburgh, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L. Drumalbyn, L. Hawke, L.
Burton, L. Dudley, E. Henley, L.
Byers, L. Dundee, E. Hereford, V.
Caccia, L. Eccles, V. Hives, L.
Camoys, L. Elibank, L. Home of the Hirsel, L.
Campbell of Croy, L. Ellenborough, L. Howe, E.
Carr of Hadley, L. Elles, B. Hylton-Foster, B.
Carrington, L. Emmet of Amberley, B. Inglewood, L.
Cathcart, E. Erskine of Rerrick, L. Inverforth, L.
Chelwood, L. Exeter, M. Kemsley, V.
Clifford of Chudleigh, L. Faithfull, B. Killearn, L.
Cobham, V. Ferrers, E. Kimberley, E.
Colville of Culross, V. Gage, V. Kings Norton, L.
Cork and Orrery, E. Gainsborough, E. Kinloss, Ly.
Cornwallis, L. Garner, L. Kinnaird, L.
Kinnoull, E. Northesk, E. Sempill, Ly.
Lauderdale, E. Nugent of Guildford, L. Sharples, B.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E. O'Brien of Lothbury, L. Sherfield, L.
Long, V. O'Hagan, L. Slim, V.
Loudoun, C. O'Neill of the Maine, L. Stamp, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L. Onslow, E. Strathclyde, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L. Orr-Ewing, L. Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Macleod of Borve, B. Pender, L. Strathspey, L.
Mancroft, L. Rankeillour, L. Sudeley, L.
Margadale, L. Rayne, L. Suffield, L
Marley, L. Reading, M. Templemore, L.
Merrivale, L. Reay, L. Terrington, L.
Molson, L. Redesdale, L. Teviot, L.
Monck, V. Robbins, L. Teynham, L.
Monk Bretton, L. Rochdale, V. Thorneycroft, L.
Monson, L. Rochester, L. Trevelyan, L.
Morris, L. Runciman of Doxford, V. Tweedsmuir, L.
Mottistone, L. Ruthven of Freeland, Ly. Vernon, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L. [Teller.] Sackville, L. Vickers, B.
St. Aldwyn, E. Vivian, L.
Moyne, L. St. Davids, V. Wade, L.
Munster, E. St. Helens, L. Ward of North Tyneside, B.
Napier and Ettrick, L. St. Just, L. Wardington, L.
Nelson of Stafford, L. Sandford, L. Westbury, L.
Netherthorpe, L. Sandys, L. Wigoder, L.
Newall, L. Seear, B. Wolverton, L.
Norfolk, D. Selsdon, L. Young, B.
NOT-CONTENTS
Allen of Fallowfield, L. Hunt, L. Morris of Kenwood, L.
Aylestone, L. Jacques, L. Murray of Gravesend, L.
Bernstein, L. Janner, L. Northfield, L.
Birk, B. Kagan, L. Parry, L.
Blyton, L. Kaldor, L. Peart, L. (L. Privy Seal.)
Brimelow, L. Kennet, L. Peddie, L.
Brockway, L. Kirkhill, L. Phillips, B.
Champion, L. Kissin, L. Pitt of Hampstead, L.
Collison, L. Leatherland, L. Popplewell, L.
Davies of Penrhys, L. Lee of Asheridge, B. Ritchie-Calder, L.
Delacourt-Smith of Alteryn, B. Lee of Newton, L. Rusholme, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L. Llewelyn-Davies, L. Sainsbury, L.
Elwyn-Jones, L. (L. Chancellor.) Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. [Teller.] Stedman, B.
Fulton, L. Stewart of Alvechurch, B.
Gordon-Walker, L. Lloyd of Hampstead, L. Stone, L.
Goronwy-Roberts, L. Lovell-Davis, L. Strabolgi, L. [Teller.]
Grantchester, L. McCarthy, L. Taylor of Mansfield, L.
Greenwood of Rossendale, L. McCluskey, L. Wells-Pestell, L.
Hale, L. MacLeod of Fuinary, L. White, B.
Harris of Greenwich, L. Maelor, L. Wilson of Radcliffe, L.
Henderson, L. Melchett, L. Winterbottom, L.
Houghton of Sowerby, L. Milner of Leeds, L. Wootton of Abinger, B.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.