HL Deb 19 May 1976 vol 370 cc1391-3

2.48 p.m.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made at the United Nations Disarmament Conference at Geneva on the proposal to prohibit, with provision for verifications, the production and stockpiling of gas weapons.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I assume that the noble Lord is referring to the proposal made by the United States' delegate to the Conference of the Committee on Disarmament on 13th April. We expect this to be discussed when the Conference resumes on 22nd June.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, could the Minister add to that Answer? Is it not the case that this is now the most serious effort to reach a solution to this problem? Has not the United States Congress Committee held up further payments until a solution is reached, and is it not now entirely a matter of the technique of verification?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, this is very much a matter of proper verification, as I have repeatedly stressed from this Box, and I am delighted that my noble friend joins me in stressing the importance of verification. Without verification there can be no meaningful disarmament. I will not comment for the moment on my noble friend's interpretation of certain representations made by other countries. For what it is worth, I would only add that my own disarming presence is expected at this meeting on 22nd June.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, has not a very great advance been made towards the solution of verification by the agreement which has been reached between the United States and the USSR for the verification of peaceful nuclear tests, and is it not possible, as the Pugwash scientists have suggested, that verification can now be made not only in the plant but some long distance away, by testing water and air for any experiments that are made?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I would not dissent from what my noble friend has said, especially towards the end of his intervention just now. On the technical aspects, my noble friend is substantially but not totally correct. As to the advance in the techniques of verification, I am aware that a certain advance has been made and that there is the possibility of making nationally based verification techniques effective and, therefore, more acceptable internationally. But as a "hard-liner" on techniques—though not, I hope, on policy—I remain healthily sceptical that we are within reach of the essence of true verification. This is not to argue in any hostile manner with those who discuss with us on these matters in Geneva, because it is of equal concern to East and West Europe, and indeed to the whole world, that verification is seen to be effective as well as heard to be an argumentative possibility in conference.