§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their interpretation of "majority rule" for Rhodesia.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government mean the maximum possible participation of the people of Rhodesia, of whatever race, in choosing their own Government.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord the Minister for that somewhat unhelpful reply—not in his usual form, because we on this side always find him so helpful—may I ask whether he can say whether he would agree with the analysis in a recent article in the Financial Times, based on Mr. Nkomo's proposition that it would need very few electors to be added to the present electoral roll in order to ensure a 60 per cent. majority in a Parliament of 144 in Rhodesia?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am afraid not. I could not make any helpful comment on such a suggestion at the present stage in the negotiations, if negotiations there are—as we all hope there will be.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, might I remind the noble Lord—
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, would the noble Lord confirm that when my 852 noble friend Lord Home of the Hirsel put a Question to him in this House quite recently on the subject of extending suffrage in Rhodesia, the noble Lord the Minister said he would look at the matter sympathetically and consider it? Has he considered the matter? May I also ask him whether he would give a possibly more helpful reply to this House?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSTo that question, I can say, Yes, my Lords.
§ Lord TRANMIREMy Lords, would the noble Lord publish in the Official Report a list of the countries in Africa at present under majority rule, distinguishing those where minority rights have been safeguarded?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, if I understand the noble Lord, Lord Tranmire, correctly, he wishes a list to be made of the countries under those categories. I will see what I can do.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, does not the noble Lord the Minister consider it to be rather a short list? It contains no entries.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, we shall see, if and when I am able to make up the list.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, can the noble Lord the Minister say what is the proportion of those on the roll who, in the last election, actually exercised their rights to vote?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, not without a deal of notice.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of us who had the opportunity of discussions on a HMS "Fearless", and some who negotiated with Mr. Smith, had hoped that if he had the common sense to see what was happening in Africa we might not have had this possibility of bloodshed in Rhodesia today?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords. I think we all agree with what my noble friend has just said.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, if the Government are not prepared to say what they mean by "majority rule", does the Minister consider it easy for people to 853 understand what the Government mean by insisting on transfer to majority rule before independence?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, if the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, will study the reply I gave to her first Question I think she will come to agree that that is the only approach for any British Government to the question of majority rule in Rhodesia.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister assure the House that the Government are thinking in terms of some protection for the minority, some element of power sharing, as has been suggested in Ulster, after majority rule takes place?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am not being unresponsive when I refer the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, to the Statement which I repeated in this House on 22nd March of this year. He will find it in the Official Report, columns 450 and 451.
§ Lord GRIDLEYMy Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister agree that some of us are a little worried about the rime interval for handing over, which has been stated to be two years? Is he not aware (I am sure he is) that in all the colonial territories which have been handed over to self-government, we have always given the local people concerned an opportunity of ministerial experience and high office before handing over? In those circumstances, would the noble Lord take into account that in this case perhaps the time limit of two years is rather short? Does not independence really mean handing over to people with responsibility to all races in the country concerned?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, we shall take full note of what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Gridley. Of course, it is essential to proceed as quickly as possible to majority rule in this particular case, but the conditions mentioned by the noble Lord are very much present in the minds of Her Majesty's Government.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, would I be right in assuming from the original Answer given by the noble Lord the Minister that the Government's definition 854 of "majority rule" is not at all necessarily identical with universal adult suffrage?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think it would mean that one would aim at universal suffrage as quickly as possible. We took some time to reach it in this country.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the question of majority rule in Rhodesia emanates from a time prior to the Labour Government's coming into office, and was most conducive to the policy being pursued by the previous Administration? Ought not Members on the other side of the House, therefore, to give credence and further thought to the attitude of their leaders at that particular time with regard to Rhodesia? If they had given way at that particular time, they would not have been faced with the disruption that is in evidence at the moment in Rhodesia.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am increasingly confident that the British approach to the Rhodesian problem is one of consensus.