§ 2.46 p.m.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what has been their response to the proposals made by Mr. Brezhnev at the recent Party Congress in Moscow for (1) the ending of nuclear weapons tests, (2) the banning and destruction of chemical weapons and of new types of weapons capable of mass annihilation, (3) the examination of the question of ending the arms race in the Middle East, (4) a world treaty on the non-use of force in international relations, and (5) the convening of a world disarmament conference at the earliest opportunity.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is discussing these questions with the Soviet Foreign Minister during Mr. Gromyko's current visit to London.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, while welcoming that Answer, may I ask the Minister whether the fact that one of the two supreme Powers has now made these proposals does not mean that they are now on the world agenda and would Her Majesty's Government support urgent consideration of these proposals in the United Nations?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, all these proposals are currently being discussed multilaterally and, in addition, as I said in my original Answer, we shall be talking to the Soviet Foreign Minister about them this week. However, while we subscribe to all these objectives 638 so admirably summarised in my noble friend's Question, we must insist upon effective verification.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that perhaps the criterion on which one should decide whether or not these admirable objectives should be pursued is whether or not the Helsinki Treaty is observed by the Soviet Union both in the spirit and in the letter?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, certainly these objectives coincide closely with the objectives of the signatories to the Helsinki Agreement. The Helsinki Agreement of course did not go into the detail that these various discussions are intended to do, and certainly did not enter into the vital field of effective verification.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that we are only too anxious to believe that the Russians mean what they say, but would he not agree that recent events justify our scepticism?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, most countries give cause for scepticism at some time or another. It is the purpose of Her Majesty's Government to pursue single-heartedly but practically every possible opportunity for arms control and disarmament.
§ Lord DOUGLAS of BARLOCHMy Lords, with regard to the fourth part of the Question, is it not the case that once upon a time we had a pact called the Kellogg Pact for outlawing the use of force in international affairs—and what happened to it?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords—whatever happened to the Kellogg Pact, or package? Article 2 of the United Nations Charter expresses exactly the objective of the Kellogg Pact, and indeed of the Soviet proposals which we are now considering; that is to say that all members of the United Nations should abjure the use of force in international relations.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government are taking the opportunity of our Russian guest being here to discuss the problem of the freightage of their cargo 639 ships compared with ours, which is very bad for our shipping industry? Would he not agree that it is a wonderful opportunity to have a very good discussion on this very important subject?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it is an important matter. While I cannot give a guarantee that that particular matter, important as it is, will in fact be discussed this week, I will convey the desires of the noble Baroness, Lady Ward of North Tyneside, to my right honourable friend.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister whether it is not the case that, while the Kellogg Pact and the United Nations Charter laid down certain principles, what is necessary now is that technical details should be carried out in the fulfilment of these proposals? May I also ask him whether, if there is doubt about their sincerity, it might not be best to make a test of these proposals?
Lord GORONVVY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords. There is continual discussion by very capable experts of all these questions. This kind of discussion is going on now. Among the fundamental questions are not only the technological ones, but also procedural questions of verification. Our friends in Eastern Europe believe that verification can be conducted on a national basis. We disagree. We do not think there can be effective arms control leading to disarmament without international verification.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister whether we need be lulled by statements of this kind from the Soviet Union so long as my noble friend Lord Brockway is neither Minister of Defence nor Foreign Secretary?
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, would Her Majesty's Government bear in mind that the nuclear weapon and chemical biological weapons are very different from other weapons of war, in the sense that they are indiscriminate and furthermore can spread all over the world? Would the Government bear in mind, therefore, that these weapons are quite different from the sort of weapon used in an attack on one particular objective?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am sure the whole House has listened, as always, with respect to my noble friend Lord Wynne-Jones, who himself is an expert in this sphere. We are well aware of the peculiar differences between nuclear and chemical weapons and the more traditional type of weapons.
§ Lord GORE-BOOTHMy Lords, the repeated assurance of the noble Lord the Minister that something is required in respect of international verification is, I think, welcomed. Would he go further, however, and say that if some kind of real international verification were achieved progress might be very dramatic?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, indeed I would. I think we probably have the size of the technological threat, but we cannot cope with that until we have fully assessed the psychological need for assurance, and that means international verification. We must work on that point. I gladly give the assurance asked for by my noble friend Lord Gore-Booth, that we believe that if effective verification were agreed on, then progress in real disarmament would be inevitable.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend the Minister aware that, apart from the opinions of individuals relative to the Minister from the Soviet Union coming to this country to meet the Foreign Secretary on the basic issues that confront both countries, the nation itself will gladly welcome the visit because they will be able to discuss many of the questions concerning many Members of this place and the other place in their talks? We can rest assured that the Foreign Secretary will be able to put forward the foreign policy of Her Majesty's Government.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I entirely agree with the spirit and content of my noble friend's interjection.