§ 2.43 p.m.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether members of the Government Front Bench described as Lords-in-Waiting can be more closely identified with Departments for which they have responsibility, either as Parliamentary or Under-Secretaries, and whether Lords-in-Waiting could be selected from other Peers, not as members of the Government but solely for ceremonial purposes when required.
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord SHEPHERD)My Lords, when Lords-in-Waiting speak in this House on behalf of the Government, they do so with its full authority. Apart from undertaking ceremonial duties, five Lords-in-Waiting serve, and are paid, as Government Whips and are on occasions also invited to assist Ministers in Departments. In addition, four other Lords-in-Waiting, holding "Palace" appointments, perform ceremonial duties and are paid from the Civil List.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that he has not answered my Question at all? What he has told your Lordships' House is something with which we are familiar. I am asking whether he will attach members of the Government Front Bench to Departments, so that Questions might be addressed to them specifically and in order that we can know precisely what are their 431 responsibilities, as in the case of Ministers of State. Or are the Government impervious to practical and concrete ideas?
§ Lord SHEPHERDNo, my Lords, we are not impervious. If my noble friend wishes to know which Ministers on this Front Bench are responsible for any subject there is in the Chief Whip's Office, and has been for a good number of years, a list setting out the ministerial and subject responsibilities of my noble friends, and of noble Lords opposite when they occupied this Bench. I am happy to say that all Lords-in-Waiting are assigned to Departments where they generally have an office and are provided with secretarial assistance. Whether it is right or wrong in your Lordships' House, Questions have always been directed to Her Majesty's Government, and it therefore falls to Ministers to answer for matters for which they may not be directly ministerially responsible. If my noble friend is in any doubt as to their responsibilities, and as to the Departments for which my noble friends speak, then, if he wishes, I will show him the list in the Chief Whip's Office. But I am suggesting that he needs only to refer to Hansard to see very clearly the Departments for which my noble friends are responsible.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that his suggestion, that I might read Hansard in order to discover which Minister is responsible for which Department, will certainly not do? But if he will be good enough to issue a statement for every Member of your Lordships' House, which can be read through the medium of the Official Report, stating which Minister is responsible, either specifically or occasionally, for particular Departments, that will be of some value. Will my noble friend also answer this further supplementary question? In view of his proposition which we heard the other week, about the formation of a Committee which will study procedure and matters relating to the conduct of Members of this House, will he refer this question to them? Will he also take into account the possibility of a change of Government very shortly—I mean the personnel of the Government—and perhaps an adjustment of the Government Front Bench, when an opportunity will be afforded of putting my proposal into operation?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, I do not intend to speculate about what adjustments may be made on this Front Bench. We still have some more days to go before we find out who will be the next Prime Minister. As regards referring this matter to a Committee of your Lordships' House, I must reject that suggestion. This is a responsibility of the Prime Minister of the day. However, I am prepared, and am very willing, to send to the noble Lord a list of ministerial responsibilities. If he so wishes—because I have it, and it is available—I can also send him a list of those Departmental subjects for which noble Lords on the Front Bench opposite are responsible.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we on this side are worried about the Answers, not about those who do the answering?
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, when the noble Lord makes any reference to the new Committee which is to be set up, will he draw its attention to the need for very short supplementary questions?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, it is not for me to say whether the noble Lord was looking in the right or wrong direction.
§ Lord BOOTHBYMy Lords, is it not clear from the noble Lord's reply that there are at present far too many Lords-in-Waiting, that they ought to be reduced in number, and that they are all well paid?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, I think my noble friend Lord Boothby is living in the wrong era. When I first came to your Lordships' House Lords-in-Waiting played a very small part, because attendance and the amount of work did not require them to perform the very heavy duties we place upon Lords-in-Waiting today. If I may say so, without appearing to address myself to the noble Lord, Lord Boyle, I believe that in terms of the workload which they perform they are grossly underpaid.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, if as my noble friend says this is really a matter for the future Prime Minister, will he be good enough to consult the right 433 honourable gentleman when he appears, because he happens to be a friend of mine?
§ Lord SHEPHERDFortunately, my Lords, we know that my noble friend has many friends.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, what will be the qualifications of those Peers who it is suggested should be chosen for ceremonial purposes only?
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, if my noble friend is referring to the four Lords-in-Waiting who are now appointed by the Palace for ceremonial duties, this is the responsibility of the Palace. Certainly it does not fall within my responsibility in this House.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Lords-in-Waiting do a very good job on behalf of both Her Majesty's Government and the various Ministries? Speaking as an ex-Minister for the Post Office, we were well served by noble Lords in this House who answered Questions on behalf of the Post Office with which they have no connection whatever, apart from the memoranda that they had to peruse which had been passed to them relating to Questions that were to be asked in this Chamber.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am most grateful for what my noble friend has said.