OVERSEAS STUDENTS' FEES (Hansard, 17 March 1976)

§ Lord GLADWYN
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they agree that, as asserted by several High Commissioners of Commonwealth countries, any increase in fees payable by overseas students in this country, over and above that dictated by an increase in costs, would be a violation of the fundamental principles underlying the Lomé Convention and the Commonwealth Heads of Government Conference in Kingston, Jamaica, and would be contrary to our obligations as a member of the European Economic Community.

§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGE)
My Lords, the question of fees for higher and further education courses in the United Kingdom is a domestic matter and lies outside the scope of the Lomé Convention. It was not raised at the Kingston Conference and the United Kingdom has no obligations in this field 216 under its EEC commitments. It is worth adding that the last increase in fees was not over and above but was commensurate with the increase in educational costs.

§ Lord GLADWYN
My Lords, do not the Government really feel that any discrimination—for such it will be—against poorer students, particularly from the Commonwealth countries, would be contrary to the whole spirit of Lomé and of the declaration of Ministers at Kingston, Jamaica, whereby it was said they would do everything to favour the poorer countries? As regards the European Community, surely charging very large fees for French students when they do not charge anything for us is contrary to the whole spirit of the thing, even if it is not a technical violation of Article 48?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, the noble Lord is putting a hypothetical case, one which has not arisen. A differential was made some time ago and the recent increase was made for all.

§ Baroness GAITSKELL
My Lords, would it not be true to say that the very best kind of overseas aid is to give education to these students from the Commonwealth and African countries? Is not this form of aid for a number of students, who surely are not millionaires, the most practical one and the one which pays the highest dividends in good will and friendly relations between countries?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, my noble friend is quite right. It is because we think this is such a valuable kind of aid that so much is being given.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, would the noble Lord explain why, if the full economic costs were charged both to home and overseas students, the fees should not be reimbursable by the Ministry of Overseas Development in the case of those who come from the poorer countries to which my noble friend referred, thus imposing no greater burden on them than they have to bear at the moment?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, is the noble Lord 217 referring to the increase of 30 per cent. put on in December? This was overall for everybody concerned and is not at the moment an unreasonable addition. There have been various noises in the Press about much larger figures; but they are quite unrelated to anything in my right honourable friend's mind—at any rate, anything that he has disclosed to me.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, I apologise for this; but the noble Lord has not answered my question, which was that if these increases to something approaching the full economic costs are warranted—and they may be so from the point of view of the costs to the universities—why should they not be wholly paid for under the Ministry of Overseas Development Vote so that they are not borne by the students from the developing countries?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGE
My Lords, that is another hypothetical question. The off-the-cuff answer is that if a very large increase were thought necessary it would be possible, although not necessarily desirable—and this remains to be seen—for it to be subvented in this way.

§ Lord SANDFORD
My Lords, while certainly some of us would consider that a 30 per cent. rise for home and overseas students is not inappropriate in these hard times, could the noble Lord say when his right honourable friend is going to announce the steps proposed to be taken to mitigate the effects of this rise upon overseas students who have already started on their courses?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGE
My Lords, I am not aware that any immediate action is intended, but I will make further inquiries.

Viscount ST. DAVIDS
My Lords, the noble Lord has said that the recent increase in fees is exactly in line with the recent increase in costs. That is very reasonable but, to put the thing in exact perspective, can he tell us whether the increase in fees to our own students is also in line with the increase in costs?—because this would tell us exactly the position.

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGE
My Lords, this is an easier one to answer because the increase was the same for both; the increase in educational costs was the same for both.

§ Lord SAINSBURY
My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that one of the best ways of helping exports of plant and machinery to developing countries is to train overseas students in the appropriate branch of engineering? Secondly, is he aware that this is the view of the West German authorities, and it is the reason why they treat overseas students so generously in these matters?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, my noble friend is repeating in different words what my noble friend Lady Gaitskell said. I agree that this is an admirable way of aiding the people who are concerned, which will bring benefits to ourselves. This is not in dispute.

Baroness VICKERS
My Lords, could the noble Lord say how many students have withdrawn their applications from educational establishments in this country since learning of the increase in fees?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, I do not have that information. I will write to the noble Baroness.

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, would the Minister consider as a suggestion to the forthcoming Secretary for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, that an approach should be made to the richer Commonwealth countries, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Nigeria, to pool resources with us to enable students to attend universities not only in this country but in Asia and Africa?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, my noble friend always makes interesting suggestions; this one will be passed on to my right honourable friend.

§ Lord ANNAN
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that if there were to be any diminuation of the differential between overseas students' fees, and, indeed, the abolition of a differential, this would have to be paid for by a cut in the vote in higher education? Would he not also agree that in the efforts of the Government to contain inflation, it 219 could be done in no other way? Would he also agree that if it were to be done, and cuts were to be imposed in higher education, in a labour-intensive profession of this kind, in which 80 per cent. of the Vote is spent in salaries and wages, they would be bound to come in substantial cuts in academic, secretarial, administrative, and technical staff and public employees, and that the unions concerned would have to be consulted?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGE
My Lords, I agree with every point my noble friend has made. That is why I said it is such an extremely difficult matter.

§ Lord GLADWYN
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that, irrespective of all that has just been said on the Government side with which the noble Lord has agreed, nothing has so far emerged which justifies any discrimination against the poorer students coming to this country?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGE
My Lords, nothing has been said.

§ Lord LEATHERLAND
My Lords, may I ask—I do so as one who, for over 10 years, was honorary treasurer of a university—whether my noble friend will agree that we ought not to be too pernickety on this question? Will he also agree that if we do anything to discourage students from the Third World from coming to our universities, they may go to the University of Moscow instead?

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGE
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend; it is always a mistake to be pernickety. I do not think there is any sign of my right honourable friend being pernickety. There are some real, rather weighty financial problems which have to be dealt with here, and they will not be made any easier by describing them in that way.

§ Lord ANNAN
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that it is unlikely that the large numbers of overseas students at present coming to this country will go to Moscow because they are treated in one way in Moscow and in a very different way in this country? In this country they benefit greatly from the fact that they come to a country with the 220 lingua franca of the world at the moment, which is English, and because of the very favourable staff/student ratios which at present exist in this country.

§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGE
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend. Once again I entirely agree with him.