§ 2.51 p.m.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action has been taken on the heating project in a housing action area, designed to ascertain the capital costs and revenue benefits of bringing the dwellings up to current standards of heating and insulation by the most 9 economical means, discussed at a meeting between the Department of Environment and the Child Poverty Action Group on 20th December 1974.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Birk)My Lords, my Department now intend to have early discussions with local authorities about a number of case studies designed to demonstrate the scope for improving heating arrangements in old people's dwellings at low cost.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the meeting to which I refer in the Question occurred more than 15 months ago, and that officials of the Department of the Environment said at that meeting that they were going to arrange to select a suitable area and enter into exploratory talks with the local authority concerned with a view to putting in extra heating capacity which would be cheaper to run for the old people and the disabled, and that they would embark simultaneously on a study of home insulation? The noble Baroness must surely be aware of the controversy over fuel costs which has occurred already this winter, and does she not think that 15 months is an intolerable delay in a project of such great importance to tenants, and particularly to those who are suffering from the enormous fuel bills of this winter?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I agree that the delay is very unfortunate. The trouble has been that the original proposals proved to be too costly in the current economic climate. Also, that particular project would have spread over two winters. We therefore, unfortunately, had to begin again, and have since been working on the more modest case studies which are now proposed. These envisage choosing three local authority areas, selecting old people's houses in those areas, identifying what work should be carried out and carrying out the work in time for monitoring to begin at the onset of winter. We are very conscious of this delay.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, could the noble Baroness please make an announcement of the authorities which she has chosen, and could she ensure 10 that the decision is communicated to the Child Poverty Action Group, which has not heard a single word from the Department in the last 15 months?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, there has been informal contact with the Research Institute of Consumer Affairs, in association with whom the CPAG has been working; and the Department will be seeking further meetings as the development of the work progresses. But I will undertake to make sure that the CPAG is aware of this.
§ Lord CASTLEMy Lords, can my noble friend tell me whether, with her right honourable friend (to whom, through her, I originally addressed the suggestion), she has made any progress whatever with the suggestion that newspapers could conceivably find a useful existence as insulation in the properties described in a previous Question?
§ Baroness BIRKYes, certainly, my Lords. I may tell my noble friend that the changes which will be made will depend on the present arrangements and the properties finally selected for case study, but they will range from the installation of new heating equipment to cheap but effective forms of insulation; for example, the use of newspapers.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, if what is stated by Lord Avebury is correct, it constitutes bad administration; that is to say, if her Department carries out a form of investigation, then makes a promise in the name of the Minister and yet does not carry that promise into effect? Does she not think it is time that she went back to see her right honourable friend and carried out an investigation with those who were responsible, and pulled them over the coals if that is what ought to be done?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I have in fact already done that. The point is that the promise was made first quite sincerely and meaningfully, but what then happened was that the project, which would have been a wider one and from which we would have got more information, turned out, as I have explained, to be too expensive and too lengthy, and, unfortunately, we had to go back to the drawing board.
§ Lord AIREDALEMy Lords, will the Department be very hesitant in recommending newspapers for insulation, bearing in mind that newspapers are rather inflammable and that other efficient forms of insulation are fire-resistant?
§ Baroness BIRKYes, my Lords. The suggestion really was not just concerned with people wrapping themselves in newspaper, or using it as top cover: it will be used for insulating cavities in walls or under the floor.
§ Lord CASTLEMy Lords, will my noble friend agree that newspapers cease to be highly inflammable when they have been read?