§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many consumer advice centres were in operation up to the end of 1975, how many people are employed in them, and what is the total cost to that date.
1404Lord ORAMMy Lords, at the end of 1975, 74 consumer advice centres were in operation with a total staff of about 250. The cumulative cost of the centres to that date cannot be estimated, but local authorities' current expenditure in England and Wales on consumer advice services, which are not all provided through centres, is estimated at £1.9 million this financial year.
§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, may I be the first to congratulate him on his first essay at the Dispatch Box and wish him well? May I draw his attention to the fact that already expenditure has exceeded the amount of the grants which the Government have given to the local authorities? Are the Government aware that these consumer advice centres, which are sprouting up in large numbers ail over the country, are in the main an unnecessary waste of Government money and that the ratepayers who are having to foot the bill in many of the local authority areas are deeply resentful of the fact that they are now having to pay for these centres?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, while I thank the noble Baroness for her personal welcome, may I suggest that she is a little confused about the figures? The £1.9 million which I quoted in the original Answer relates to the amount which is being spent in the current financial year on consumer advice services in general. The noble Baroness probably has in mind the £1.4 million in the grants scheme for setting up centres as from the beginning of the year. That is a different figure and it has not been exceeded.
In regard to the noble Baroness's general suggestion that this money is not well spent, I suggest that she needs to look, as in all matters of public expenditure, at both sides of the balance sheet. There are very considerable benefits from the work of these centres, both directly to consumers who recover compensation, and also in a much more general but nevertheless valuable educational sense.
§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that while the Government were paying through the taxpayer the local residents were happy with the situation, but that 1405 now that the ratepayers are paying for this service, in many areas they feel that it is a waste of their money?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, the information we have does not bear out what the noble Baroness said. The number of complaints about the adoption of the scheme is very small; on the other hand, the welcome which has been given to it by local authorities and their ratepayers is considerable.
§ Viscount HANWORTHMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that these centres have done and are doing a great deal in the very difficult area of the lower paid, who badly need advice when buying goods?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I most certainly agree with the noble Viscount. Many people—an average of 8,000 per year per centre—are receiving really good advice. It is an excellent service.
§ Viscount AMORYMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell us under what system of priorities the proposed additional number of consumer advice centres can be fitted into essential public expenditure; and is he aware that, as a young bachelor of average competence, I require no consumer advice whatever?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, many married people with children do need advice, however. The new centres are needed to serve areas which are not yet covered. The proposed new centres will extend these valuable consumer services for the benefit of no fewer than 10 million members of the population. That is an important thing to do.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, is the noble Lord in a position to say, however well-intentioned the scheme may be, what efforts the Government are making to ascertain its cost effectiveness? What is the advantage in terms of money to the consumer in terms of money spent by the tax and ratepayers?
Lord ORAMMy Lords, I could give the noble and learned Lord a number of examples but I shall content myself—and, I hope, him—with one. The Croydon centre, for example, which opened in September 1974, was used by more than 28,000 people during the first 1406 12 months. The amount of compensation received as a result of this centre's intervention on post-shopping complaints was over £35,000. Comparable and indeed greater figures have been recorded for other centres. These are real benefits to set against the costs involved.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us are surprised at the criticisms apparently coming from the other side of the House of these consumer advice centres? Is he aware that many of us in the consumer movement feel that the centres are of great value and that, with due deference to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, it is not only the money saved which is important but also the advice which is given to the consumers who go to these centres, and that many of us hope that the numbers will be greatly extended?