§ 2.55 p.m.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the average total cost of courses at polytechnics in England and Wales leading to the higher national certificate in business studies when they are pursued by full-time study, day release, evening classes and directed private study respectively.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge)My Lords, courses leading to the higher national diploma are normally for two years and are available only for students studying full-time or under sandwich course arrangements. Separate costings are not available for courses in business studies. The available costings distinguish only between courses using laboratory facilities and those which do not. This latter group, made up mainly of social, administrative and business studies, has an estimated average annual recurrent institutional cost per student of £1,380 at 1975 survey prices.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask 1208 whether he would agree that it does not go all the way to answering the Question at which it is aimed? Is he aware that the Question relates to certificate courses while he, perhaps inadvertently referred to diploma courses? Leaving that aside, may I ask whether he would agree that, with the projected severe and particularly capital intensive cuts in educational expenditure in the future, there should be some cost effective accounting, in this of all fields, in our educational programme of reorganisation?
§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGEMy Lords, I am not quite clear what the noble Lord meant when he referred to certificates. His Question referred to diplomas and my reply referred to diplomas, so I am a little confused about that. In relation to the three types of course—social, administrative and business studies—for which I have given an average costing, the difference between one and the other is reckoned to be extremely small, so I believe that the figure of £1,380 is a reasonable attempt to answer the noble Lord's Question. I do not think I want to take it further than that, but if the noble Lord wants to go into details about the future, then we shall have to wait for the report of the Business Educational Council, which I think will make new arrangements which may make somewhat simpler the entry to these courses.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, may I draw the attention of the noble Lord to to-day's Order Paper, which I think is the same as yesterday's intended future business where the word "certificate" is applied? However, I would not say that that is of absolute moment because the noble Lord has adduced the point which I wanted to make, namely, that at present there is no means of distinguishing between the cost effectiveness of the three routes either to a certificate or to a diploma, and that the BEC is sitting and should have this material available. If it is not available to the noble Lord, I may be right in deducing that it is not available to the Council either and this is a situation which I hope the noble Lord will take steps to remedy, if indeed it exists.
§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGEMy Lords, I appreciate the noble Lord's point and we will certainly look into it.