HL Deb 02 March 1976 vol 368 cc894-6

2.38 p.m.

Baroness YOUNG

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they propose to take to raise the standards of loft space insulation in the present building regulations to the levels recommended by the Sectary of State for Energy in his leaflet Energy Saving in the Home.

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, requirements in the building regulations relating to loft space insulation were, in effect, doubled last year. They represent the highest level of insulation for new dwellings that can at present be justified in mandatory regulations subject to penal sanctions. The higher levels recommended in leaflets issued by the Department of Energy and also the Department of the Environment relate to existing dwellings not covered by the new regulations, and are therefore solely advisory.

Baroness YOUNG

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. Does she agree that to the ordinary person it is somewhat confusing that the building regulations should recommend insulation of 50 millimetres, which is approximately 2 ins., whereas the Department of Energy recommend 3 ins. to 4ins. of insulation in the loft?

Baroness BIRK

No, my Lords; I do not find it very extraordinary, because, as I said, one is mandatory, so one has to take the rock-bottom standard, whereas the other is advisory. To increase the advisory standard would mean increasing the cost. We have to bear in mind that many households use insufficient energy to reap the higher benefit from increasing the standard of insulation. Also, we need to know more about the effect of high levels of insulation and modern methods of roof construction—for example, there are problems of condensation in new houses—before making higher standards compulsory. It is also true to say that many things that are advisory today become mandatory tomorrow.

Viscount HANWORTH

My Lords, may I ask whether the Government have considered extending mandatory provisions to factories, because, after all, people spend a great deal of time in them?

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, this comes under the Health and Safety at Work Act, and powers to conserve energy will be coming into use under that Act. It is certainly true that this will cover non-domestic buildings, such as hotels, shops, offices and, no doubt, factories.

Lord LEATHER LAND

My Lords, if she comes to consider the question of extending those provisions to factories, will my noble friend bear in mind that in the summer many factories and production lines become far too hot, and many instant strikes have been due to the fact that workshops have been too hot?

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, it is for exactly this reason that experiments are are still going on, and the whole matter is still under consideration.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell the House what steps the Government are taking to insulate buildings which they own, particularly the dwellings owned by the Ministry of Defence?

Baroness BIRK

Not without notice, my Lords.

Lord GOODMAN

My Lords, am I to understand the noble Baroness as saying that mandatory standards are rock-bottom standards? Would she like to reflect on that, because, in relation to matters like Parker Morris, I have always understood that the absolute reverse was the case?

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, what I meant was that the mandatory standard must be the minimum safe standard that can be imposed on people, taking into account what it is about, the cost and the state of our research. Over and above that, it is quite proper to advise people that they would be more comfortable and would probably also reap the maximum benefit—if they were using a certain amount of energy—if they went above that standard. In view of his connection with housing, I am sure the noble Lord will know the disadvantages at this time of imposing this standard on housing authorities and private developers.

Baroness YOUNG

My Lords, in view of that last reply from the noble Baroness, how can she say that the Department of Energy can recommend a much higher standard of loft insulation, when, as I understand it, the Department of the Environment does not yet have the information on which to base a similar recommendation?

Baroness BIRK

No, my Lords; what I said was that we are advising that this makes sense. The advice is given very much on a do-it-yourself basis; indeed, there is a circular, of which I shall be very happy to let the noble Baroness have a copy, which is purely advisory. But when it comes to implementing a standard on a large scale, other factors such as cost, the amount of energy that people use and the question of condensation in new houses have to be taken into account, and the advice being given is for people living in existing houses.

Lord WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, does my noble friend suggest that the Department of the Environment does not have the energy to find the solution?