§ 2.58 p.m.
§ Lord KENNETMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the result of the work of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Role of the United Nations in the Field of Disarmament, what proposals did the British member of it make, and what advice was sought in the formulation of those proposals.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, perhaps I may preface my reply to my noble friend Lord Kennet by apologising to him and to the House for a somewhat Pavlovian reaction to the fact that my noble friend Lord Brockway was on his feet; I think it is generally understood that when he is on his feet it is expected that I should say something. My Lords, to my noble friend Lord Kennet I should like to say this in answer to his Question. The Ad Hoc Committee is not due to complete its work until September. Proposals by Her Majesty's Government were set out in a Note to the Secretary-General of the United Nations dated the 28th April. A copy is available in the Library of the House. British delegates to the committee are speaking in accordance with that reply. The proposals were formulated by the Foreign and Common-wealth Office in the normal way.
§ Lord KENNETMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that while one is, naturally, very glad to know that such a document is available in the House, yet one is bound to have misgivings about a conference of this sort which goes forward so fast, for so many months, before anybody hears of it at all? What is the opinion of the Government about their duty towards Parliament and the people when an international conference of intense importance is carried on without the Press noticing, and without the Government wishing to conceal anything? Do not the Government feel that they have perhaps a duty to make some statement or announcement which will attract public attention and allow those interested in the matter to form their own opinions, which might be of assistance?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I do not quite go all the way with my noble friend when he refers to this as an international conference. It was a suggestion, to which we as a country finally agreed, that the United Nations should look, through an ad hoc Committee, at the procedures which the various Agencies dealing with disarmament used. We were rather doubtful, as my noble friend knows, as to whether there was need for yet another instrument of review for this purpose, but in the end, in conformity with the general view held by our fellow members of the UN, we agreed. Indeed, as one of the 15 countries which, in fact, returned a report to the Secretary-General—one of the 15 who did this before the deadline on 1st May—we have, of course, co-operated fully with the United Nations in this important matter. I should like to look at my noble friend's supplementary to see precisely what he has in mind, and perhaps talk to him, about an international conference on this matter. Perhaps he might elucidate further.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, while this Committee may or may not be useful —and I am inclined to think that it may prove not useful —would the noble Lord not agree that the greatest contribution that could be made both to disarmament and to the relaxation of tension would be some progress in the disarmament talks in Vienna, which have been bogged down for the last two years?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, indeed bogged down for the last two-and-a-half years in Vienna; and, indeed, in the Conference of the Committee on Disarmament in Geneva. The fact that they are continuing is of course, as the noble Lord would instantly agree, a hopeful sign, but this country and others would like to see some indication among the countries of Eastern Europe, for instance, who take part in these discussions, that some advance can be made technically and otherwise in them. It is hopeful that they continue. As a distinguished former Prime Minister of this country said: "Jaw, jaw, is better than war, war ".
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, is it not almost a joke to take the role of the Committee on Disarmament in the UN seriously? Would it not be true to say that at this time to use the word " disarmament " itself is ironic, because, all around us, every country in the world is not only rearming but making a very good business and selling arms to everybody else?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I would be inclined to say that the facts, in so far as these are true as advanced by my noble friend, about the high and possibly escalating level of armaments in the world are the imperative argument for redoubled negotiation on disarmament.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that continual assertion that "Jaw, jaw" being better than "war, war" gives some support to unnecessary dilatoriness on matters that ought to be brought to something like a reasonable speedy conclusion, and that this is one of them?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I sympathise entirely with what the noble Lord says. I wonder whether this is a matter which we can bring to a conclusion. Perhaps we can agree that this is a matter on which we must make progress. The conclusion may lie very much in the future. It is a matter of control, and of achieving increased control over the very formidable technological facts of life and the use to which these are put by various nation States.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, was not the case for this 304 committee that, although it was obviously fatuous, it was likely to be less mischievous than most alternatives of the United Nations activities?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, one naturally defers to my noble friend's views on these matters without necessarily agreeing with them.
§ Lord KENNETMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that as it is 14 years since this country, which shares the third greatest destructive capacity in the world, made a comprehensive proposal about disarmament, it is now time that we should consider making another?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I certainly do not agree that it is 14 years since this country made a constructive proposal on disarmament. One recalls a previous Government successfully proposing control over nuclear tests, supported by all Parties in the State and in the two Houses of Parliament. One recalls in 1969 the then Labour Government successfully negotiating the Nonproliferation Treaty. One recalls various advances in biological warfare control, and other instances which I shall not detain the House by mentioning. But I insist that it is not true to say that this country has been deficient in putting forward constructive proposals for disarmament, certainly for the last 14 years.
§ Lord KENNETMy Lords, would the noble Lord note that my question referred to disarmament, and the examples he gave did not?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I would suggest that disarmament certainly includes control and the diminution of the nuclear threat.
§ Lord KENNETMy Lords, may I say to my noble friend—
§ Several Noble Lords: Order! Order!
§ Lord KENNETThe noble Lord made no mention of any proposal for the diminution of nuclear weapons.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the non-proliferation of nuclear potential, I would suggest, comes within the definition of control of the nuclear threat.