§ 2.38 p.m.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will list those countries which have legislation on race relations broadly similar in purpose to the Race Relations Act in Britain.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I regret that this information is not readily available and could not be obtained except at disproportionate cost.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, I find it difficult to thank the Minister for that not very comprehensive reply. Nevertheless, I do so. As Her Majesty's Government have rightly rejected and condemned racial discrimination wherever it occurs, particularly in South Africa, are they equally condemning racial discrimination in various Central African countries where it is practised, particularly against white people?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLIf I may say so with the greatest respect, my Lords, I think the noble Lord has departed very substantially from the Question. 155 However, as he has pointed out, my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have recently affirmed the Government's determination to ensure equality of treatment for all members of our society. I think I can say that the Government are concerned that there should be racial justice and harmony, regardless of the side.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, could the noble Lord tell us whether Uganda has similar legislation to our own and whether in their experience it is more or less mischievous than it has proved to be here?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, so far as I know, the countries which have similar legislation are Australia, Canada, Bermuda, Belgium, France, Kenya, Norway, New Zealand and the United States of America, but it does not necessarily follow that it is on a par with our own legislation.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, as the noble Lord started off by saying that he could not give an answer to the Question, why has he now given one?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the Government have been asked whether they will list those countries which have legislation on racial relations that is broadly similar to our own. I have pointed out that the countries I have mentioned have legislation but that it is not necessarily on broadly similar lines to our own.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, if Kenya is included in the list which the noble Lord has given, is there any reason why some of the immigrants who have come here because of racial discrimination in Kenya should not be able to go home again?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I hope that I have answered the Question the noble Lord put down. I do not think that I can deal with matters which are very wide of the Question.
Lord LLOYDMy Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord, I do not think that these matters are wide of the Question. I have some experience of 156 Africa, and undoubtedly there is racial discrimination there of the worst type—
§ Several noble Lords: Question!
Lord LLOYD—under President Amin. There is racial discrimination in Kenya, and the sooner we realise this and stop patting ourselves on the back and telling everybody else—
§ Several noble Lords: Question!
Lord LLOYDThen may I ask the noble Lord whether he approves of Britain's admitting the nationals of countries which practise the most blatant racial discrimination on their own account?
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)My Lords, with complete respect to the noble Lord, the question he has now put goes very wide of the Question on the Order Paper. I believe that, in the light of a report which will shortly come before your Lordships' House, we should seek to keep within the terms of the original Question. It may be that slight latitude can be allowed, but it cannot go quite so far as some noble Lords have tried to take it this afternoon.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord the Leader of the House, I do not think I went wide of my Question when I asked my supplementary. If the noble Lord will read it, he will see that it refers to racial discrimination, wherever practised, and I was asking whether, if racial discrimination is practised in other countries, Her Majesty's Government would act in the same way as they do within our own country; and that is contained within the Question.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, if the noble Lord will look at Hansard tomorrow he will see that I referred to the questions; the noble Lord was not the only supplementary questioner. I think his supplemental question was to the Question on the Order Paper—slightly apart, but to it—but not the others.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, I can only say that the weight of words will not bear the burden of my gratitude to the Minister for his replies.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House whether it is not correct to say that what we are seeking to avoid is debate at Question Time, and that if we are going to deal with one country after another it is bound to become a debate, which we must avoid if we are to keep order in this House?
§ Lord SHEPHERDThat is so, my Lords, and there is another factor which the House has always taken into account. It is true that questions are put to Her Majesty's Government, but it is recognised that Ministers are speaking from a narrow brief based on the original Question on the Order Paper. Therefore, when supplementary questions go much wider, particularly as they did today, into the field of foreign and Commonwealth affairs, then not only the Minister, but I believe, the whole House is not well served. Certainly the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Byers, about the need to avoid debate at Question Time, is in my view of supreme importance.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, I apologise for pursuing the matter, but to clear up what has been said, I recently visited Kenya as the guest of an Indian member of the population there, accepting his generous hospitality. The complaint of discrimination in Kenya is merely as between tribes, and however important that may be it is hardly a matter for this House. Also, I recently received a visit—
§ Several noble Lords: Question!
§ Lord HALE— from a person who was employed in one of the South African countries at twice the salary paid to the local inhabitants.
§ Lord SHEPHERDMy Lords, if I may say so to my noble friend, his intervention clearly illustrates the point I was seeking to make earlier. This situation arises when there are muted provocative remarks made in the form of a question, when it is natural that there is a desire on the part of others who hold a different view to enter into the debate. I think this is a matter which we should always avoid. Question Time is for putting questions to the Government of the day, mainly to elucidate information.