HL Deb 21 June 1976 vol 372 cc8-10

2.52 p.m.

The Earl of LAUDERDALE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish official figures on public expenditure per head of population by regions during the years 1969–74 to which a civil servant, Mr. David Clark, is reported to have made reference in a recent address to the Regional Studies Conference at Durham.

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, the figures referred to by the noble Earl were calculated by the Northern Region Strategy Team using published information supplemented by additional material supplied by Government Departments and public corporations. I understand that in due course the team will publish their estimates in a technical report.

The Earl of LAUDERDALE

My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether he can confirm that the figures show that per head of population Scotland enjoys 27 per cent. more public sector expenditure than the rest of the United Kingdom?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, I cannot take any responsibility for the figures which were published by the team. The team calculated the figures and they must take the responsibility for them. However, I can say that in the year 1974–75 the identifiable public expenditure per head in Scotland was £691, in Wales £601, and in England £582. These figures excluded capital expenditure by the British Steel Corporation, and if that had been included the Welsh figure would have been higher in relation to the other figures than the figure I have given.

The Earl of LAUDERDALE

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that additional information, may I ask whether he would not agree that these figures deserve to be trumpeted the length and breadth of Scotland in support of the Union, and would he not advise his colleagues in the Government to use these figures as vigorously and energetically as possible? Will he also bear in mind that the figures to which my Question alluded suggested that there was no less than 28 per cent. per head of the population more nationalised industry investment in Scotland than in England and Wales, and in the case of Government help for industry no less than 62 per cent. more? Would he not agree that these are figures of which the United Kingdom should be very proud and they should be trumpeted and trumpeted and trumpeted again by the Government ?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Earl, but I would point out that the figures were not given only by the Strategy Team; they were issued by the Government themselves and I would refer him to the House of Commons Hansard of 5th February 1976, at col. 709 onwards, where he will find the figures not for one year but for six years, showing the kind of position which he has in mind.

The Earl of LAUDERDALE

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Will he not agree that figures in Hansard are valuable as far as they go, but trumpeted by the megaphone of Government propaganda they are worth a great deal more? Is not this a very serious issue which the Government could advance? We would support them in it.

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, perhaps the English are a little modest.

Lord PANNELL

My Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that nationalism is not, and never has been, a rational emotion?

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, arising out of the Question tabled by my noble friend Lord Lauderdale, if the Minister is going to do a great deal of trumpeting, will he also trumpet how much the United Kingdom Government—not the English—have obtained for Scotland through the European social, regional and other funds, because I understand that Scotland has received an enormous percentage greater than the rest of the United Kingdom ? Perhaps the Minister will also take that on board when he is doing his trumpeting.

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, I never said that I was going to do any trumpeting, but I would remind the noble Baroness that the figures to which she referred are a small percentage of the expenditure in Scotland.

Lord SELSDON

My Lords, while we are trumpeting about expenditure, can the noble Lord give an indication of how much per capita the Government are currently borrowing?

Lord JACQUES

My Lords, that is an entirely different Question.