§ 3.21 p.m.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have considered applying the powers contained in the Industry Acts of 1972 and 1975 to the situations of individual United Kingdom shipbuilding firms which have resulted from the worldwide reduction in orders for new ships.
1380§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of INDUSTRY (Lord Melchett)Yes, my Lords, the Government are already making full use of these powers in appropriate cases.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. If any company is in difficulties owing to the worldwide situation, are not all the necessary powers for help to be given by the Government available under these Acts, if required, and consequently is it not highly misleading for the impression to be given that such difficulties cannot be tackled unless the whole industry is nationalised?
§ Lord MELCHETTNo, my Lords, it is not misleading. It is true to say that the particular difficulties of a particular company can be dealt with by giving large amounts of public money under the Industry Acts and, as the noble Lord knows, very large sums of public money have already been made available since 1972. However, it is not possible to deal with the worldwide recession in the shipbuilding industry and the consequences for the industry in this country without looking at the industry as a whole, and it is that job which British shipbuilders will do.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, is the Minister aware that in the 10 years to 1975, partly or wholly owned public shipbuilding companies have received £173 million of aid against £26 million for all the private sector companies? If, therefore, powers are in the hands of the Government to give aid of this kind, why are they holding back and why are Ministers pleading that the delay in nationalisation is causing hardship and unemployment when that is totally untrue?
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, I am not sure that I have the same figures as the noble Lord. According to my information, £150 million have been provided since 1972 in terms of special assistance to the shipbuilding industry, and the shipbuilding companies have benefited from the home credit guarantees for ships under Section 10 of the industry Act to the tune of £680 million. As I have already said to noble Lords opposite, it is not possible to take a coherent and 1381 rational view of the shipbuilding industry as a whole without having it in public ownership and it is that job which British shipbuilders must do.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that it has confused public opinion, to put it no worse, that the Leader of the House in another place has suggested that the current procedural delays on the nationalisation Bill have caused, or are threatening to cause, unemployment in that industry? Surely that suggestion is misleading, in view of the fact that on his own admission there is any amount of help available which could be called into play if needed?
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords. I said that help was available for particular companies with particular difficulties. I said also that it was not possible to take a rational view of the expenditure of very large sums of public money, which everyone admits will be needed by the shipbuilding industry over the next few years, without looking at the industry as a whole and that it is that job which British shipbuilders must do. If the vesting date is delayed, British shipbuilders will be delayed in the necessary action they can take and that is why jobs are threatened by the delay in the passage of the Bill.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, have the Government any figures of the number of jobs which are at risk if shipbuilding is not nationalised? If the Government do not have those figures they ought not to make unsubstantiated allegations.
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, I think that anybody who knew the position that the shipbuilding industry is in worldwide would know that all the jobs in the industry are threatened unless a coherent view can be taken of the industry and that, as I have already said, is a job for British shipbuilders to do.
§ Lord SOMERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether shipbuilding for this purpose also includes ship repairing, as there are some firms which specialise in ship repairing only?
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, the Question on the Order Paper deals with shipbuilding.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Lord has said that action is being taken under the Industry Acts of 1972 and 1975, at an appropriate time could he give us a full account of whether that action has had any result and whether the shipbuilders want any action to be taken? I do not want just an answer to my question. I want to know all the facts.
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, I look forward in the very near future to giving all the facts to the noble Baroness during the Second Reading debate on the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industry Bill.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, as the noble Lord has agreed that all the necessary powers are in the hands of the Government, is he saying that the Government cannot take a coherent view of the situation and that it needs the setting up of a new body to do that?
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, it is not possible to take a coherent view of the strategy for a whole industry if you are empowered only, as we are under the 1972 Industry Act, to respond to demands from individual companies when they come forward to make them. If we may leave Party politics out of the question for a moment, the noble Lord must know that it is not possible to take a sensible view of the whole industry if the only thing you are enabled to do is to react to the particular problems of a particular yard at a particular time.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, without my wishing to introduce Party politics into the matter, which the noble Lord knows I would never dream of doing, the Minister referred to the industry Act 1972, but there is also the Industry Act 1975 and the regional aid resources. Surely such an enterprising Government as that of the noble Lord the Minister, supported by such enterprising intelligence as his own, could think of all kinds of means of helping companies which are in difficulties in the meantime while the procedural troubles in another place—they are not our troubles—delay the passage of the Bill. That would be in the interests of everybody. That is not a Party point.
§ Lord MELCHETTYes, my Lords, and that is what we are doing in the interim, but I am saying that it is not possible to have a long-term and sensible strategy without the Bill. However, I agree with the noble Earl that this enterprising Government, of which I am happy to be a member, are doing everything that they possibly can to help the British shipbuilding industry, and a very great deal has been done.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, could the noble Lord say whether he has taken the advice of the Organising Committee, under the chairmanship of Admiral Sir Anthony Griffin, which has been touring shipbuilding yards, and whether we are to have an announcement as to how selective aid can be provided in order to help shipbuilding over this difficult phase? Would not the Minister agree that if the Government could give £162½million to Chryslers in January 1976 on a selective basis without nationalising the whole of the motor-car industry they could perfectly well do the same for this industry, if they wanted to and were determined to help shipbuilding?
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, great as the difficulties of the motor-car industry are, I think the noble Lord would agree with me that they do not compare with the difficulties that the shipbuilding industry on a worldwide basis has to face. I do not think that the comparison is fair. Also it is worth reminding the noble Lord that the figure he mentioned of £162 million is a total figure over a period of years and does not compare with the £150 million which has been spent on the shipbuilding industry since 1972. I would say that the Government have benefited considerably from the advice of the Organising Committee. In particular, we have taken steps to try to encourage British shipowners to order more ships from British shipyards. While last year only 10 per cent. of the orders were placed in British yards, I am glad to say that this year 40 per cent. of the orders have been placed in British yards. The Government are doing a great deal in this very important problem.
Lord LEATH ERLANDMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that certain prominent firms of shipbuilders that are at present facing great difficulties are eager 1384 to be nationalised and have publicly expressed their disappointment at the way the Bill is being held up in another place?
§ Lord MELCHETTMy Lords, everybody who has the interests of the industry in this country at heart wants the Bill to proceed as quickly as possible.